vaheguroojeekakhalsa,vaheguroojeekeefateh!

veer harinder singh jee,

i do not think that maharaaj jee worshipped shasters nor do i think that maharaaj jee wishes for us to do so. i believe we are to show satkaar to shasters but not to worship them. maharaaj jee has done ustat of many things, describing them in reverential terms.

peer is a muslim spiritual guide; muslims have peers - to sikhs the word guroo means more than just a spiritual guide. we must be careful of translations and when superimposing seemingly parallel terms upon one another.

maharaaj jee has shown his sikhs how important various things are. should we worship all those things as well? of course not because that would be similar to idol worship - i.e. worshipping something other than akaal purakh / worshipping the creation instead of the creator.

take this example - gurbaaNee teaches us how importat satguroo sahib jee is, the fact that he is indistinguishable from vaheguroo - does this mean we should worship him as a seperate and distinguishable entity alongside vaheguroo? no - dasmesh pita jee has said that those who worship him (his body/his physical form) will go to narak.

this is because sikhs are worshippers of nirgun-saroop vaheguroo. the guroo-jyot which resides within maharaaj jee at this very moment is one and the same as vaheguroo's nirgun-saroop - this is why gurbaaNee declares that this 'pothee' (siree guroo granth sahib jee) is parmeshar's (vaheguroo's).

sikhs worship vaheguroo / satguroo. sikhs worship gurbaaNee which is vaheguroo / satguroo. sikhs do not worship any objects or human bodies. neither do we worship avatars.

when gurbaaNee talks about maharaaj jee as an avtaar it is not the same as the vedic concept - siree guroo nanak sahib jee's body is not in itself nirgun vaheguroo - my understanding is that the guroo-jyot of vaheguroo is the avtaar according to gurmat, the body is the vessel. of course, that body which carries the guroo-jyot is worthy of respect; may we wash that body's feet and drink in the amrit. hence the level of satkaar we should always show to siree guroo granth sahib jee. however, should we worship maharaaj jee as an object or as an entity - there is a difference if you really think about it?

to sum-up, the bibek-budhee valae sikhs have always done dandaut to guroo-jyot when bowing to siree guroo sahib jee - whether their eyes gazed upon maharaaj jee in human roop or shabad-roop.

it is not a coincidence that during the mughal period, when the arts and especially portraiture flourished in india, that it is nigh on impossible to find more than one or two allegedly contemporaneous portraits of maharaaj jee's mehls. why could this be? siree dasmesh pita jee, a great patron, had many poets, intellectuals etc, in attendance - you'd think there would have been painters and sculptors too wouldn't you? maharaaj jee walked this earth via human feet less than 300 years ago and was very noteworthy during that era ourside of the sikh world and maongst the contemporary indian socio-political scene. yet why are there no scholars discovering 'authentic portraits'?

this in itself is evidential of maharaaj jee's wish that sikhs must worship vaheguroo.

may the sangat frorgive me for any errors.

ps - i'll stop hijacking the thread now.

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ

ਦਾਸ,
ਆਤਮਾ ਸਿੰਘ

Bhai Amarjeet Singh Ji,

I'm sure that the first ever Granthi was Baba Buddha Ji, a male. So are woemn allowed to carry out seva as a Granthi or sit on Tabiya even?

If you want everything to be exact as the Amrit Sanchar in 1699 then maybe we should start getting a Bibi to put the patasey in the Amrit like Mata Sahib Kaur did in 1699. Do you understand if you want to follow the original way then it should all be original from scratch.

Females carrying out seva in the Panj Piarey is not really an issue to be honest, everything in Sikhi is simple and practical, it only becomes an issue when we make it one.

In Gurbani Guru Sahib has called everyone a Sohagani (bride), now you cannot say that this is only referring to females, in Sikhi no distinction has been made between Male and Female, Satguru only talks to the Soul.

Bhai Atma Singh Ji,

Sikhs should always do Namaskaar to Shastar. Guru Gobind Singh Ji in Gurbani says "Yahai Hamaarey Peer".

doing granthi seva and taking amrit cannot be compared to doin panj pyare seva.
the panj pyare represent guru gobind singh, and the panj pyare that vahiguru ji chose were male. vahiguru's hukam is never a coincidence.
there are strict requirements for panj pyare seva. the granthi, the pehardar, the abilakees are not representing sri guru gobind singh sahib ji.
yes, that is my point, if mata bhaag kaur was in panj pyare im sure that abilaakees would have amazing experiences due to her massive kamaee, but she wouldnt be in the first place. 5 gurmukh singhs. i doubt very much that mata bhag kaur would have been stopped doing panj pyare seva, if guru sahib wanted it to happen it would happen.
the thing that no one is responding to or accepting is that there is a required physical roop for one to do panj pyare seva. this is highlighted by the fact that anyone with a missing ang, be it something as insignificant as a missing toe, is unable to do seva, and they are not in pooran form of a gurmukh singh.
no this is not "inequality" it is just the way things are. why is no one complaining that the gurus all being male is "inequality". no one is saying that bibiaa are less gurmukh then singhs, all that is being said is that the panj pyare were 5 gurmukh singhs and that is how the panj pyare should remain.
ok i have said my share and i have said a lot more on previous threads, please do a search. im out. :-)

amarjeet,

'this is highlighted by the fact that anyone with a missing ang, be it something as insignificant as a missing toe, is unable to do seva, and they are not in pooran form of a gurmukh singh.'

The 'missing ang' is a spirituality reason, a defect, due to sin of karma and punishment in this life, so that is why that person cannot do seva in the panj. In the case of females, are you saying being a female is punishment for bad karma. Therefore, a female cannot do seva in the panj? Your last crap has been answered. There's nothing more to be said. By the way, everything your saying is proving that females can do seva in the panj. Thank you.

Bhai Amarjeet Singh Ji,

Bhai Gurdas Ji says:

iek isK duie swD sMg pMjI prmySur]

eik sikh dhue saadhh sa(n)g pa(n)jee paramaeshura||

One is a Sikh, two the congregation and in five resides God.

Any answers to this?

The 5 singhs called up by vaaheguroo's hukam were brown, does that mean 5 gora amritdhari singhs cant do punj de seva.

3 were jatt and the other two were low caste.

Does that mean the 5 have to match that requirement of caste??

The key requirement for doing seva in PUnj is jyot vigas ie elimination of haumme. People doing seva in Punj shud have realized their true self, they shud have realized that the body is just an illusion, just a form of maya.
Punj do represent the roop of Satguru Sri Gobind Singh Jee Maharaaj but what is this roop? KHalsa is the roop of Satguru Jee and Khalsa is one who has realized the truth and has merged in truth. People doing seva in Punj shud be Khalsas and both bibi and singh can become a khalsa.
Tomorrow if Parkash BAdal for a publicity stunt decides to do seva in amrit sanchar and chooses 4 other disgraceful people like himself(he might choose his kanjarr son sukhbir badal), would that represent the roop of Satguru Jee ?? noooooooooooo.

Is Guroo Gobind Singh Ji Mahraj the Body, or is he the eternal Jot?

If we all believe that it was the Jot that makes dhan dhan Guroo Gobind Singh Ji Mahraj the Guroo, then the physical properties of the Panj Pyare do not matter.

Thanks 'Death' Ji for clearing that thing about disability up that was one thing i was always curious about.

Bhull chukk maaf to all veerji's and penji's :D

i did say i was out, so im not going to argue the females in panj pyare point anymore, no1 has been able to provide any strong point of contention, BUT death i must disagree with you on your point.
firstly there is no need to refer to my opinions as "crap", easy on :-)
secondly i think that you are completely incorrect in saying that a missing ang is due to previous bad karme and therefore they cant do panj pyare seva!
that is complete nosense
1. there are millions of ways that bad karme can be activated upon a person, ie. gets bullied daily, has no/little food/water to eat, has no house to live in. yet you are saying that only the people who have missing angs arent allowed to panj pyare seva? what about all the other people who have bad karme and done something wrong in previous lives, but are paying for it in different ways????
2. a punishment of bad karme, is that punishment, why punish further by not allowing that person to do panj pyare seva? your arguement is unique, i have never heard some1 coming up with your point before, it simply doesnt fit.
and doing panj pyare seva, we are concerned of the jeevan of the person at that point, not with what he has done wrong previously, in past life times. there could be a gursikh with a strong jeevan who has a missing toe, and a singh who has no missing angs but with not as high a jeevan. now if your point is right, and it is about spirituality, then surely the singh with missing toe would be prefered to do panj pyare seva.
4. bhai sahib randhir singh, broke someones teeth so had to endure this same punishment in this lifetime, so how come he was allowed to do panj pyare seva?
why only bad karme which causes you to loose an ang?
you have made no sense bhai sahib death jio
also how would you know whether the guys bad karma has been activated yet or not?
ie. if the guy did somet rong as was due to loose a leg in this life, but hadnt yet lost it, now he still has tht bad karma, so with your logic, he cant do panj seva? i guess we have to ask him whether he is going to loose any angs in the future?
please email me and we can discuss this further
amarjeet_singh_akj@hotmail.co.uk

Death you said its about ur kamai or jeevan. What does a missing ang have to do with anything?

On of the bhagats who wrote gurbani were blind.

amarjeet, I don't need to email you, a kid, about anything. Your disagreement in this doesn't make a difference in the world. I firmly believe that females can do seva in the panj, no doubt about it - no one can change my belief in this and the same goes for everyone else who believe females have a right to do seva in the panj. The funny thing is, you can disagree all you like, but in the future everyone will witness thousands and thousands of chardi kalaa Singhnia doing all types of seva, especially panj pyarai da seva.

No more arguing for me. VJKK VJKF.

Before I do finish, I would like to say, just in case no one knows, I'm not a female. But I would hate to see a singhnis face when telling her she cannot to seva in the panj because God gave her the body of a female and not a male!

Now for the sikh females, this is for you, the ones that would agree and say: I don't mind if females cannot do seva. YOU'RE NOT SIKHS. A SINGHNI WOULD WANT TO DO SEVA!! A SINGHNI WHO JAPS SO MUCH NAAM WOULD WANT TO REPRESENT GURU JEE!!

Finally, GURU JI WOULD NEVER STOP A SINGHNI FROM DOING SEVA IN THE PANJ, NOT MY GURU JI!!

THE END.

vaheguroo ji ka khalsa vaheguroo ji ki fateh

YES bibian can do sewa in panj pyaare obviously if she has a chardikala gursikhi jeevan


BUT BUT BUT

Only Dastaar wali bibian can represent guruji.....

in malaysia an amrit sanchar was done few yrs ago with bibian in panj pyare but with a rummaal tied on head & no dastaar

this is 100% manmatt

vaheguru ji ka khalsa, vaheguru ji ka khalsa

Pyare jio, The selection of the panj should never be based on gender, but on which 5 Gursikhs have the most complete jeevans. Ideally only those who are complete in there jeevans should be allowed to do this seva. If one of them Gursikhs happens to be a bibi rather than a Singh, then fine.

It would be wrong if a bibi who is complete in her jeevan is overlooked, and replaced by a Singh, who is not complete, just because of gender.

I remember Gursikhs telling me that in UK, in the jatha a bibi has done seva in the past. There are other jathas in the Panth that also do not restrict bibian from this seva.

There are some other jatebandian that do restrict bibian from this seva. Some also restrict bibian from doing keertan aswell. It is wrong to differentiate in this manner. One is judged in the Court of Akaal by their deeds and not their gender.

You see, when you have water, the water does not differentiate on who`s thirst it is quenching. Whether that person is black, white, young, old, male, female. It just quenches it. Similarly the wind does not look at whos face it blows on, it just blows carefree. If Akaals creation is such, then how can Akaal be different. Naam bani abyaas does not look at the vessel (gender) its Paraas kala affects all. The virtues of naam can exist in all, if they focus on it.

When selecting for the Panj, we select the five most spiritually progressed, and ideally only five who are accomplished. The process of choosing the Panj Pyares is based on selection based on Jeevan and Rehit. It is a process called “Shood Shudaaie” and is very misunderstood, even by mainstream jathebandies, who sometimes pick Singhs because of their build or prominence rather than Jeevan and Rehit. The Panj Payes should always been the five most Jeevan wale Gursikhs in that sangat, regardless of any discrimination such as gender discrimination. The Panj Pyares have a very Scared and important seva, and should always only be blessed to the most Jeevan wale Gursikhs, whether they are all males, some female, or even all female. It should never be categorised like some ritual which needs to be enacted. They have a huge Spiritual role in creating the next generation of Gursikhs, and their spirituality should never be compromised by politics. The Seva should always be given only to the five most worthy Souls in terms of their Jeevan and devotion to Guru.

In the past, there was the call in Punjab to have Amrit sanchaars in villages and have two of the Panj Pyares as women. This is completely absurd, and a form of positive discrimination. Similarly absurd is the current fashion of only males. The selection of the Panj Payes should never be made on basis of making point or statement on any issue.

This is very serious seva, and should only be given to those most disserving. I have never read any rehit maryada that mentions gender. We are all females in Vahegurus eyes, and only Akaal is the male.

There is no valid argument in favour of all male sevadaars. Once one person said that if a bibi did seva, then if another males knee or hand just happened to touch her during the seva, then he may get a wrong thought at that moment of doing seva. If such a person has that, then that person was completely unworthy of that seva in the first place. If a person has no control of lust, then why is he doing seva in the first place.

In conclusion, only complete Gursikhs regardless of gender should be doing this vital seva.

vaheguru ji ka khalsa, vaheguru ji ka khalsa

One God: Waheguru
One Guru : Sahib Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
One Group : Guru Khalsa Panth!

This should be the Motto of Our Generation

i just like to add my view. . .

bibia cannot do seva in panj. . . this beleif was started by teja bhausaria, and still remains in the panth. . .its manmat. . . as per sant jarnail singh jee. . .and i remember doing veechar with sant hari singh randhave valeh on this matter and he said th esame thing and sant jagjit singh jee harkhovale valeh

It’s my humble opinion that bibiyaan should be allowed to do sewa in Punj Pyare. In eyes of Vaheguru all are his naariyaan (women). Our real being is genderless as in physical sense. The jeev-aatma does not have a gender like physical beings do. Veer Jagjit Singh, Death, Veer Harinder Singh have given excellent views on this subject.

One of the points given was that since the first granthi was Baba Budda jee, then only a male can be a granthi. Why not take it further and make a rehit that only Randhawa Jat (Baba jee’s birth caste) can be granthis. This just does not make any sense.

If a Bibi is pooran rehitvaan, then there should be nothing preventing her from doing this sewa.

“Khalistan Zindabad” has raised the point that this is the Bhasauriya influence on Panth. I think too much credit is being given to the Bhasauriya movement. Bhasauriya movement was predominantly a very good movement for Sikhs and this is why great Gursikhs like Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee and Sant Attar Singh Mastuanewaale associated with it in it’s earlier days but when Sardar Teja Singh introduced manmatts in this movements, Singhs backed off from it.

Just because Teja Singh committed some mistakes in the last years of his life, does not mean that all that they did was wrong. Bhasauriya movement played pivotal role in doing Sikhi parchaar in the Malwa region. It brought clarity Sikh philosophy and rehit that had been lost in the previous 100-200 years.

Kulbir Singh

teja singh committed many mistakes repeatedly in his life. he threw out the baby with the bathwater wrt to sikh philosophy. got rid of a some manmat, but introduced way more of his own.

as for bibian, it's Hukum. the original punj were all bhagats in their past lives. their jeevans are mentioned in Gurbani. It was in God's Hukum that nobody answered the call for heads at first, just as it was in God's Hukum that only these 5 were able to answer it when Guru ji called a again. The original 5 being bhagats, and thier being male, is all in Hukum. It's simplistic to say that women don't get it just b/c they didn't step up at the time. The reason they didn't step up is b/c it was not in Hukum for Bibian to be in punj.

i will post some katha up in the near future about this matter.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/29/2007 07:15AM by admin.

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Khalsa jio,

As mentioned earlier by many Singhs no one (except if Guru Sahib wanted to) can stop rehitvaan GurSikh bibiyan to conduct an Amrit Sanchar. But bibiyan with bindi (black or red spot on forehead), surkhi (lip stick), nail polish, sun shades (touched eye brows) and wearing ear rings and yet called them Guru Keeya(n) Singhnia and asking this as a right then forget it no way they will be allowed even for Keertan seva or even for Guru ka langer seva. At the same time any Katha (Lecture) or sayings done by any Pandit in Sikhi saroop will make no difference to the subject. Just recently a news media brought up a news of a kathakaar with pictures whose name was some time mention by some poster on this forum too for his Katha (Lecture) and now he found to be disobeyed Sri Akal Takhat Sahib’s Hukamnama and stood with RSS congregation. We had respect for this Singh but seeing this incidence this have to be change. Same is also done by a so called Sikh Professor. People like these are of same class as Teja Singh bhasoria who do some good things then all of sudden starts manmatt.

Now in our mind it is very clear who ever sells Gurbani for stomach is no better than a Brahminical Pandit and his vichaars has no meaning either as his karams (do's) are exactly same as Banaras kay Thug. Only difference is the saroop which is turban and kirpan instead of Bodee and Janau.

Guru Mehar Karay

Waheguru ji ki khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

I always wonder how those oppose based on gender are all for giving amrit to bibiyaa now, since NONE stood up back then. If following this mindset, then should bibiyaa today also not be valid for amrit?

I would also like to add that 'Baba Amarjeet Singh' Jee's view is of he's own and not that of the Akhand Keertani Jatha. Although im sure you may find a very few Singhs like himself in the Jatha who may well not agree, it is not the overall view by any means.

No hard feelings to 'Baba Amarjeet Singh' Jee, im only stating the obvious. No hard feelings Baba Jee