ਨਸਾਜ਼ੋਨਬਾਜ਼ੋਨਫ਼ੌਜੋਨਫ਼ਰਸ਼॥ਖ਼ੁਦਾਵੰਦਬਖ਼ਸ਼ਿੰਦਹਿਐਸ਼ਿਅਰਸ਼॥੪॥ (ਸ੍ਰੀ ਮੁਖਵਾਕ ਪਾਤਿਸ਼ਾਹੀ ੧੦॥)

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Killing of Goat at Sachkhand Shri Hazoor Sahib
Posted by: mpsingh86 (IP Logged)
Date: November 16, 2009 10:50AM

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

I have seen video of this Pratha (ritual) on youtube(search by Hazzor Sahib Jatka). And my question to supporters of this pratha is, What bravery (bahaduri) do you get in killing a goat, that too when two people are holding hind legs of the goat?? And when the goat is not even a full grown goat. It is more like tying and killing.....

Is this any brave act?? Is this the kind of bravery our Guru's have shown us and expect us to show to the world??

Secondly as per PRATHA, the head of the goat is taken inside Gurudwara sahib and from the blood of the goat, Tilak is applied on all the shastars. All this is done, right in the presence of Guru Granth Sahib ji.

What is this Tilak now? Isn't this BALI and TILAK PRATHA? Isn't this the kind of Pratha and ritual that our Guru's have asked us to abandon??

With the grace of Guru Sahib, whatever Sikh History I know, i never heard that our Guru's told us to kill a goat and apply tilak with its blood on your shastars.

By saying all this, i am not condemning any Sikh OR questioning their abilities. My question is to the Pratha that is being followed blindly, since years.

What i Know is that "Shastars need blood". but why don't you put a cut on your thumb and pay your respect to Shastars, with your own blood. Comparatively that will be more brave of you, then to kill innocent animals.

In my opinion, everyone should learn Gurbani and Gatka. Gurbani itself will give you enough courage and power to uphold your sword against evil. There is no need to show your fake bravery by tying and killing innocent animals.

In the end, I just want to say that I am still a Sikh, a learner. May be If someone could answer my queries, I will learn from him.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

 



Re: Killing of Goat at Sachkhand Shri Hazoor Sahib
Posted by: hopeless (IP Logged)
Date: November 16, 2009 01:42PM

"By saying all this, i am not condemning any Sikh OR questioning their abilities"

what a weak attitude to take...I condemn them to the highest order....if killing a goat for a blood ritual is anything to do with Sikhism.....then I will quit sikhism today.......that is the difference between even hinting that this is in anyway acceptable in sikhism in any shape or form.......so you are either 100% against or not....there is no middle ground.

 



Re: Killing of Goat at Sachkhand Shri Hazoor Sahib
Posted by: Sukhdeep SIngh (IP Logged)
Date: November 17, 2009 02:24PM

The problem is that most people are under the impression that Jhatka is ok because the SGPC does not ban its use. Orignally meat was completely forbidden in the panth. However, certian individuals who lacked self- control changed the marayada to justify the use of eating meat. They claim that we are not allowed to eat halal. But Gurbani and ancient REhatnams forbid the killing of animals, and the adoption of foreign practices to justify/legalize the killing of animals . But in Sikhi killing of animals is Haram ( Illegal) and can never be considered as Halal ( legal) no matter how you do it because compassion is a key virtue in Gurmat.


Bhagat Kabir Ji states


kabeer joree keeeae julam hai kehathaa naao halaal ||
Kabeer, to use force to kill an animals is tyrannical , even if you call it legal.

dhafathar laekhaa maa(n)geeai thab hoeigo koun havaal ||187||
When your account is called for in the Court of the Lord, what will your condition be then? ||187||

and

kabeer jeea j maarehi jor kar kehathae hehi ju halaal ||
Kabeer, they forcefully kill animals , and call it legal.


dhafathar dhee jab kaadt hai hoeigaa koun havaal ||199||
When the Lord calls for their account, what will their condition be? ||199||

The above pangtia point out that Halal ( "legal" killing of animals) is strictly forbidden in Gurmat.

In the past Gursikhs and most Hindus did not eat meat it was only the foreign Muslims who ate meat. For a Sikh this food of the foreigners was completely forbidden. To mercilessly kill an animal with force; one will be held accountable in Dharam Rajs court for such actions. Again the practice of killing innocent animals and justifying it as religious is a foreign concept which is alien to Sikhi.


Guru Sahib mentions in Asa Di Var that

neel vasathr pehir hovehi paravaan ||
Wearing blue robes, they seek the approval of the Muslim rulers.

malaeshh dhhaan lae poojehi puraan ||
Accepting bread from the Muslim rulers, they still worship the Puraanas.

abhaakhiaa kaa kut(h)aa bakaraa khaanaa ||
They eat the meat of the goats, killed after the Muslim prayers are read over them,

choukae oupar kisai n jaanaa ||
but they do not allow anyone else to enter their kitchen areas.

dhae kai choukaa kadtee kaar ||
They draw lines around them, plastering the ground with cow-dung.

oupar aae bait(h)ae koorriaar ||
The false come and sit within them.

math bhittai vae math bhittai || eihu a(n)n asaaddaa fittai ||
They cry out, ""Do not touch our food, or it will be polluted!""

than fittai faerr karaen ||
But with their polluted bodies, they commit evil deeds.

man joot(h)ai chulee bharaen ||
With filthy minds, they try to cleanse their mouths.




So not only did the Bahams abandon their own religion and start practicing the ways of the Muslims to gain acceptacnce, the Khatris ( warrior caste) did the same things as well. Guru Sahib states

khathreeaa th dhharam shhoddiaa malaeshh bhaakhiaa gehee ||
The K'shatriyas have abandoned their religion, and have adopted a foreign language.

In the Original Shabad I posted Guru Ji states:
abhaakhiaa kaa kut(h)aa bakaraa khaanaa ||
They eat the meat of the goats, killed after the Muslim prayers are read over them,

Guru Sahib use the word Kutha ( killing of animals) to describe the practice of those foreigners. Guru Sahib also mentions how they start to recite Muslim prayers before slaughtering these Animals in which the Bahamans and Khatris started doing as well. Guru Sahib considered this cowardice and betrayal of ones own faith as a great insult to ones faith and honor. Even those "warriors" the Khatris who were suppose to protect the country betrayed their faith and started accepting the ways of the foreigners. Thus, Guru Sahib created a true warrior caste which would stay firm in its Religious principles and not adopt the ways other faiths.


Bhai Daya Singh Jis Rehatnama States
"
Dhan na Dey Jo : Jo Parnaree Bhogey, Farsee Parhey, Na Meh Uhda, na vah meyra, Uhs Sikh Key Hath Ja Jal Na Peevey. Farsee Parhey ka besah na kareh, Ann Uhs Ka Na Khaveh.

"Do not give money to the following: Those who enjoy other (multiple) women, and those who recite Farsee. They do not belong to me and I do not belong to them, do not drink water from the hands of such " Sikhs". Do not trust those who recite farsi, avoid eating from them"

The following rehatnama indicates that Sikhs are forbidden too trust and eat from those who commit a Bajjar Kurheit. It mentions two Bajjar Kurehits here. One having relations with people other then your wife. Meaning having more than one wife and having relations with them which is something Muslims often do. Two- Reciting of Farsi ( the reading of the Quaran) when killing animals which was previously done by the Bahamans and Khatris. People who stat to adopt the way of other faiths no longer belong to Guru Ji.

A Tankhanama by Bhai Nand Lal Singh Ji states

Leh Turkan Tey Maas Ju Khaveh. Bin GurShabad Bachan Jo Gaveh. Triya Raag Suneh Chit Laee. Sunho Lal! So Jampur Jaee.

Listen Nand Lal! Those that eat meat of the Turks, Sing non religious Songs, Listen to lustful songs about Women will go to hell!

Sadly people who commit this adharmic act of Jhatka claim that they are doing good to the animal. They claim the goat will be reborn as a Sikh in the next life. But the truth is that those who commit such acts are either going to hell or will be born as a goat in the next life. You cant kill animals and consider it to be a good act. Jhatka is modified version of Halal which is still considered a foreign practice which has no basis in the Sikh Dharam. Guru Sahib states that if killing animals is religious then what does it mean to be non- religious?

Sikhi is a distinct Dharam which does not practice the rituals of other faiths. Any Sikh who starts to follow the ways of other religions are not Sikhs. "Guru Ji does not belong to them, and they do not belong to Guru Ji". Such " Sikhs" are to be avoided , nor should we provide any resources to such Sikhs. They should be completely separated from the panth , and we must always keep a vigilant eye on those that challenge Guru Jis rehat.

Be aware of these people and like minded individuals.

[www.panthic.org]
[www.panthic.org]
[www.panthic.org]
[www.panthic.org]

 



Re: Killing of Goat at Sachkhand Shri Hazoor Sahib
Posted by: kulbir singh (IP Logged)
Date: November 18, 2009 07:26AM

Many years ago, the current jathedar of one of the groups of Taksal, came to our home. At that time he was not the jathedar yet. He narrated an incident that involved his conversation with Nihung Singhs on sacrificing the goat. Jathedar jee told the Nihungs that it did not seem Gurmat to sacrifice the poor and helpless goat. At this the Nihung Singh said that the goat willingly gets sacrificed after hearing the Chandi di Vaar paath. At this jathedar jee said to the Nihung, “then the goat is better than you guys. At least it is willing to get sacrificed after hearing the Chandi di Vaar da paath but you guys who have been reading this paath for such long time, but did not get the urge to sacrifice for the Panth”. He said this jokingly and the Singhs too took it jokingly.

In any case, definitely this ritual is not part of Gurmat. There are certain other aspects of Hazoor Sahib maryada that does not seem to be in line with Gurmat.

Kulbir Singh

 



Re: Killing of Goat at Sachkhand Shri Hazoor Sahib
Posted by: mpsingh86 (IP Logged)
Date: November 18, 2009 10:53PM

Remember those Mahants which were burnt alive by guru sahib in Hot water for doing namak harami and anti sikhism teachings. Some of them ran away and got saved. i think those mahants are now secertively running these anti-Sikh teachings

 



Re: Killing of Goat at Sachkhand Shri Hazoor Sahib
Posted by: chatanga1 (IP Logged)
Date: December 11, 2009 11:49AM

kabeer joree keeeae julam hai kehathaa naao halaal ||
Kabeer, to use force to kill an animals is tyrannical , even if you call it legal.

dhafathar laekhaa maa(n)geeai thab hoeigo koun havaal ||187||
When your account is called for in the Court of the Lord, what will your condition be then? ||187||


sukhdeep singh, can you tell me where the word "animals" occurs in the above you have posted?

 



Re: Killing of Goat at Sachkhand Shri Hazoor Sahib
Posted by: Sukhdeep SIngh (IP Logged)
Date: December 15, 2009 04:56PM

To understand that the pangti is referring to animals you need to take the whole pangti into consideration.

Even though the Pangti is meant for everyone , Kabeer Ji is speaking directly to Muslims who consider the killing of animals as lawful ( halal). Therefore, the pangti is referring to the killing of animals not the killing of humans

Take the next two verses from this Shabad

kabeer khoob khaanaa kheecharee jaa mehi a(n)mrith lon ||
Kabeer, the dinner of beans and rice is excellent, if it is flavored with salt.

haeraa rottee kaaranae galaa kattaavai koun ||188||
Who would cut the throat, to have meat with his bread? ||188||


When a Muslim commits kills an animal he cuts the throat and recites prayer this he considers it lawful. While Kabeer Ji saying this act is immoral.

 



Re: Killing of Goat at Sachkhand Shri Hazoor Sahib
Posted by: chatanga1 (IP Logged)
Date: December 16, 2009 12:04PM

ਸੇਖ ਸਬੂਰੀ ਬਾਹਰਾ ਕਿਆ ਹਜ ਕਾਬੇ ਜਾਇ ॥
Why does the Shaykh bother to go on pilgrimage to Mecca, if he is not content with himself?
ਕਬੀਰ ਜਾ ਕੀ ਦਿਲ ਸਾਬਤਿ ਨਹੀ ਤਾ ਕਉ ਕਹਾਂ ਖੁਦਾਇ ॥੧੮੫॥
Kabeer, one whose heart is not healthy and whole - how can he attain his Lord? ||185||


ਕਬੀਰ ਅਲਹ ਕੀ ਕਰਿ ਬੰਦਗੀ ਜਿਹ ਸਿਮਰਤ ਦੁਖੁ ਜਾਇ ॥
Kabeer, worship the Lord Allah; meditating in remembrance on Him, troubles and pains depart.


ਦਿਲ ਮਹਿ ਸਾਂਈ ਪਰਗਟੈ ਬੁਝੈ ਬਲੰਤੀ ਨਾਂਇ ॥੧੮੬॥
The Lord shall be revealed within your own heart, and the burning fire within shall be extinguished by His Name. ||186||


possibly. but the above lines which come before whatyou have quoted show nothing concerning animals. after the 2 lines you quote there comes :



ਕਬੀਰ ਗੁਰੁ ਲਾਗਾ ਤਬ ਜਾਨੀਐ ਮਿਟੈ ਮੋਹੁ ਤਨ ਤਾਪ ॥
Kabeer, one is known to have been touched by the Guru, only when his emotional attachment and physical illnesses are eradicated.


ਹਰਖ ਸੋਗ ਦਾਝੈ ਨਹੀ ਤਬ ਹਰਿ ਆਪਹਿ ਆਪਿ ॥੧੮੯॥
He is not burned by pleasure or pain, and so he becomes the Lord Himself. ||189||


ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮ ਕਹਨ ਮਹਿ ਭੇਦੁ ਹੈ ਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਬਿਚਾਰੁ ॥
Kabeer, it does make a difference, how you chant the Lord's Name, 'Raam'. This is something to consider.


again nothing about animals. Do you think maybe Bhagat Ji may have been talking about the killing of others ie hindus being excused by the muslims as being halal ie permissable, as they are kafirs?

It seems like a warning to those who under the remit of their religion think they can pass death o others and use their religious orders as an excuse.

After all we could assume this was primarily about animals if Bhagat Ji had said something about the killings of hindus or kafirs even, firstly and then moved onto animals. But in these passages there is nothing of the sort. Do you think it not strange tat Bhagat Ji talks about God and then onto the killings of animals?

Or maybe it would be better explained that, Bhagat Ji talks about God and then any killing?

 



Re: Killing of Goat at Sachkhand Shri Hazoor Sahib
Posted by: mpsingh86 (IP Logged)
Date: December 16, 2009 01:46PM

Basically One of the Nihang singh in hazoor Sahib was asked why you are doing this immoral activity of killing the goat.

he said when we recite Chandi Di vaar infront of Goat, Goat willingly Gets ready for sacrifice.

NOW THE BIG QUESTION IS IF BY LISTENING TO CHANDI DI VAAR, GOAT WILLINGLY GETS READY FOR SACRIFICE, WHAT ABOUT THE PERSON WHO READ THE CHANDI DI VAAR DA PAATH?

why doesnot he sacrifice his own son or daughter or any other human for this Ritual.

Gur bin Ghor Andaar, Guru bin Samaj na Aave. Even after reading SGGSji or Dasam Granth ji. we donot follow it Path. that is why we suffer and our panth is sufferring today. (aaja bajaan walea Ghore te chad ke)

 



Re: Killing of Goat at Sachkhand Shri Hazoor Sahib
Posted by: Sukhdeep SIngh (IP Logged)
Date: December 16, 2009 02:58PM

read the proceeding pangtis and Kabeer mentions that simple vegetarian diet is the best diet. If Bhagat Kabir was talking about Humans, Why would Bhagat Kabir Ji mention food all of sudden?

In Islam Halal generally is referred to as " the justified killing of animals". The pangti you first posted mentions the world Halal. So it is evident Bhagat Kabir Ji is giving reference to the slaughtering of Animals in which he is saying its unlawful in Gods court and people will be held accountable for these actions.

*Admin Cut*



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/16/2009 03:06PM by admin.

 





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