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Re: The high moral character of Sri Laxman Ji
Posted by: kulbir singh (IP Logged)
Date: October 07, 2008 11:19AM

Veer Sukhbir Singh jeeo,

We all know that in Ramayana, Ram Chandhar's wife is kidnapped by Ravan and kept prisoner for many years. Ravan never touch Sita, showing that he was as man of good character

I agree with you that Ravan has a plus point here for not molesting Sita in his captivity. You write that he was a man of good character. I agree with you. Even though he made a mistake of kidnapping someone's wife - Sita - still we can appreciate that he did not molest her. Same way, why can't we accept the mistake of Lakshmana of cutting off Saroopnakha's nose and at the same time also appreciate his good character of being a jatee i.e. man who tried to control his Kaam?

I did not write anywhere that we should adopt Rama's or Siri Krishna's values. Please read my post again and see if I wrote that we should make them our heroes or that Sikhs should look up to them. All I wrote was that I appreciate and admire any person who successfully stayed pure of Kaam related mistakes like fornication and adultery. If Lakshamana or Arjuna or Puran Bhagat were one of those people who resisted the urges of Kaam and took a higher road at some points of their lives, then I have no hesitation in appreciating this good deed of theirs.

In order to teach us or give us sikhiya, Guru Sahib has used tales listed in Islamic as well as Hindu literature. In order to teach us that the whole world is dukhi, Siri Guru jee has given numerous examples from Hindu Shastras in the shabad 'Nanak, Dukhiya Sabh Sansaar||' Just read that shabad. Siri Guru jee writes that even Raam, Pandavas, Ajai etc, who are said to be great people, cried in dukh. In the end, Siri Guru jee openly declare that unless the jeev-istree (Baali) accepts Vaheguru as her husband, she will cry in dukh. The point is that Guru Sahib has used non-Sikh characters to make their point.

In the following pankiti Guru Sahib is teaching us that the kingdom of Ravan - Lanka - was made of gold but what did stupid Ravan take when he died:

ਲੰਕਾ ਗਢੁ ਸੋਨੇ ਕਾ ਭਇਆ॥
ਮੂਰਖੁ ਰਾਵਨੁ ਕਿਆਲੇ ਗਇਆ॥3॥

In order to teach us the falsity of this world, Siri Guru jee has used the example of Ravan, who was said to be extremely rich. If he died and left everything in this world, then why are we holding on to maya? Why don't we japp Naam? This is what Gurbani is telling us in this pankiti.

Then Guru Sahib gives the example of Drupadi the wife of five pandavas and teach us that in distress or in trouble if we call out to Vaheguru, we would surely get help:

ਪੰਚਾਲੀ ਕਉ ਰਾਜ ਸਭਾ ਮਹਿ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਸੁਧਿ ਆਈ ॥
ਤਾ ਕੋ ਦੂਖੁ ਹਰਿਓ ਕਰੁਣਾ ਮੈ ਅਪਨੀ ਪੈਜ ਬਢਾਈ ॥1॥

There are literally hundreds of references to Vedic literature in Gurbani. Guru Sahib is using examples of people in old history to make a Gurmat point. You listen to katha of Sant Gurbachan Singh jee Bhindranwale or other mahapurakhs and they too use old stories to make their Gurmat point. This does not mean that if we make reference to people of pre-1469 era, then we are somehow subscribing to their religion.

I agree with your point and Veer M. Singh's point that it's best to use examples from Sikh sources as much as possible. But by the same token, we have so much literature written in Dasam Granth, that pertains to non-Sikh sources. Just look at the story of Chandi, written by Siri Guru Dasmesh jee. It's a story of wars between Chandi, a power created by Vaheguru and the demons like Mahikhasur and Rakatbeej. A good part of Punjab was a worshipper of Devi in olden days and Guru Sahib used the story of Chandi or Durga, to show Punjabis that if a woman can be so brave as to fight the demons, why can't the people of Punjab fight against foreign agression of invaders? Vaar Durga kee or Chandi dee Vaar, Chandi Charitter etc. baanis of Dasam Granth have used characters from Vedic civilization to teach us something. This does not mean that Guru Sahib subscribed to Hindu notions like worshipping Durga, Shiva, Vishnu or Brahma. In Gurmat, we only worship Vaheguru the almighty creator of all and do not worship any Devi Devta.

If any post of this daas, has given any wrong impressions, then this daas with folded hands seek forgiveness from all Singhs. Kindly point out my mistake and this daas will try to correct it.

Kulbir Singh

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/07/2008 11:36AM by admin.


Re: The high moral character of Sri Laxman Ji
Posted by: scimitar (IP Logged)
Date: October 07, 2008 01:48PM

no way kulbir singh! u didnt say anything wrong, you smashed it n inspired me

in this thread your 1 guy who has helped me c things another way..may guru sahib bless more of us in the younger generation so we grow stronger.

stay in chardi kala paaji you did seva the right thing..my hands r folded to the time and effort you put ino things. bless


Re: The high moral character of Sri Laxman Ji
Posted by: Bhopinder Singh (IP Logged)
Date: October 07, 2008 06:48PM

One has to be very careful these days.Incident regarding the hanging of Bhai Kehar singh ji

On the day of his hanging jalad used a very rough hand theirby breaking the hairs of Bhai sahib ,he requested the magistrate that his hairs be protected nothing was done to stop it ,he even asked that he be allowed to put the rope arroud his head ,nothing happened in the end he roared BOLE SO NIKAL SAT SRI AKAL

Before the sentence were carrried out a very strange thing happened .Two hindus were in line before Bhai sahib.Indian home ministry requested the sitting judge of supreme court to speed up their cases,which in itself is unprecendent and strange.In its haste to please the political bosses the judges released both of them.

Their charges
One of them was convicted by three living witnesses for murdering the entire family of his daughters inlaws alltogether five people.

second one was convicted of killing a amn ina burglary and his four year old son.

One of the judge who sat on the bench that sentenced Bhai Kehar singh wrote ' you cannot hang a dog on this evidence .

Their were folks who said they became amritdhari for the shaheedi of this person or that,but the length of fight has shown its affects

In the akal ustat Guru Gobind singh ji has written

Ram cannot protect you whose name you medidate .A kund made of thousands of fires is where god has hung him and so shall you.

Just to boast your ego one goes of path ,just to show you know a lot,sadly mistaken are we humans ,we have no honour as husbands and sonsbut talk of honour to others .

It is my humble statement das himself has many drawbacks.


Re: The high moral character of Sri Laxman Ji
Posted by: xzik101 (IP Logged)
Date: October 07, 2008 09:16PM

Bhopinder Singh Bro, what does bhai Kahar Singh Jee's Shaheedi have to do with this topic? This topic is about having high moral character.


Re: The high moral character of Sri Laxman Ji
Posted by: Sukhbir Singh (IP Logged)
Date: October 08, 2008 08:36AM

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Bhai Kulbir Singh Jio,

You quoted my previous post stating Ravan is a man of good character. But you never quoted the rest of my paragraph stating:

"Ravan never touch Sita, showing that he was as man of good character unlike Lakshman who cut the nose the of Saaroopnakha."

I believe that Ravan is a man of good character compared to Lakshman, but I DO NOT believe that Ravan is a good character overall and a moral character for Sikhs.

Gurbani always states the truth. Below we can see what Gurbani says about Ram Chandar.

ਰਾਮ ਰਹੀਮ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਕੁਰਾਨ ਅਨੇਕ ਕਹੈਂ ਮਤ ਏਕ ਨ ਮਾਨਯੋ ॥

ਸਾਧ ਅਸਾਧ ਜਾਨੋ ਨਹੀ ਬਾਦ ਸੁਬਾਦ ਬਿਬਾਦਿ ॥ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਕਲ ਪੂਰਣ ਕੀਯੋ ਭਗਵਤ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥੮੬੨॥

ਜੌ ਕਹੌ ਰਾਮ ਅਜੋਨਿ ਅਜੈ ਅਤਿ ਕਾਹੇ ਕੌ ਕੌਸ਼ਲ ਕੁੱਖ ਜਯੋ ਜੂ ॥ ਕਾਲ ਹੂੰ ਕਾਲ ਕਹੈ ਜਿਹਿ ਕੌ ਕਿਹਿ ਕਾਰਣ ਕਾਲ ਤੇ ਦੀਨ ਭਯੋ ਜੂ ॥

Gurbani condems the teachings of Ram Chandhar.

Kulbir Singh Ji, you are well aware of what RSS is doing. They want to mix Sikh history with Hinduism. They want to show that Guru Gobind Singh ji was rashtarvadi. RSS wants to show that Sikhs should take teachings from RAmayana, Mahabhartha, and etc. And they want to merge Sikhism into Hinduism. I personally think that Chandra Singh, Vijaydeep Singh, XZIK101, and Mehtaab Singh are doing the same thing as RSS.

It appears that the Tapoban form has fallen into the RSS traps and is playing a good role in favour of RSS by accepting such posts which go in favour of Hinduism . How has the Admins approved the translation of Japji sahib from Bhagti Sangeet website? We have so many Sikh websites which provide the translation of Japji Sahib, what is the need to go to RSS websites?

How can we forget Blue Star Operation and 1984 Genocide of Sikhism.

Sukhbir Singh


Re: The high moral character of Sri Laxman Ji
Posted by: kulbir singh (IP Logged)
Date: October 08, 2008 09:44AM

Bhai Sukhbir Singh jeeo,

I believe that Ravan is a man of good character compared to Lakshman, but I DO NOT believe that Ravan is a good character overall and a moral character for Sikhs.

You are entitled to your opinion but I don't agree that Ravan was a better person than Lakshmana. I also believe that Lakshmana, Ravana or any other person who does not have Gurmat Naam is not an absolute role-model for us. Only Gursikhs can be our absolute role models. But this does not prevent me from appreciating any good deed done by them. Appreciating a good deed by any person in this world is not anti-Gurmat. If Isa Maseeh (Jesus) saved that one woman who was being stoned to death by a crowd by saying, "let that person cast the first stone who has not sinned". The whole crowd went quiet and left the woman alone. The sinful woman asked Isa Maseeh for forgiveness and he said "go and sin no more". Is there any thing wrong in appreciating this good deed of Isa Maseeh? If we appreciate this compassion shown by Isa Maseeh, do we become Christians or does Isa Maseeh become our hero? Not in my opinion. I don't have a problem in appreciating the good deeds of any person, Sikh or non Sikh.

Rest of the stuff that you have written about RSS and the threat it is posing to the Sikhs, by calling them Hindus etc., is not a news for me. I already know that but thanks for the reminder on this.

Having said all this, I still maintain that I don't see anything wrong in what I have written in my original post under this thread. My Guru Sahib has used characters from non-Sikh sources to make a Gurmat point in Gurbani, and this daas sees nothing wrong in doing so even today. Doing so does not mean that we are subscribing to their ideology. Appreciating a good deed of any person irrespective of the religion, caste, or creed, does not seem anti-Gurmat to me.

As for the admin issues, these should not be discussed in open public. If you have any issues with the administration of this site, you can contact the admins directly.

Kulbir Singh

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/08/2008 10:01AM by admin.


Re: The high moral character of Sri Laxman Ji
Posted by: Mehtab Singh (IP Logged)
Date: October 08, 2008 09:47AM

First of all, no one here personally knows me, or maybe any of the others slandered in a previous post, so one should be careful before painting all those who don't subscribe to their version of Sikhi with a brush that they probably fear themselves, i.e. RSS. Using such a logic, a number of posters on this board who suffer from intolerant Hinduphobic hatred can be brushed aside as hate-mongering fanatics as well. I have nowhere stated that Sikhs should look upto any Hindu avtar. We have Sahib Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj, and so we don't need any other authority. We have a history written in the blood of shaheeds, and they are the ones we need to look up to. All I did was put forward something I found interesting, and wished Gurujee blesses me with such a high moral character. If someone have a problem with that, sorry to say but then that problem is solely theirs. Not trying to boast about myself, but I have myself written against RSS and exposed their mindset several times on other forums. If people haven't had the opportunity to read those, whose fault is it?

And another thing, this is not the first time that I have been called "RSS" just because of my Hindu background. Over the years I have got used to it, and trust me I am least bothered about it as I don't consider it one cent worth of any concern or attention. I don't seek acceptance from such people, rather my sole aim is to seek acceptance as a dog in Dasmesh Pita Jee's charan. Thats all that matters to me.

Before I conclude, let me state in clear words that I will continue to post whatever I feel is appropriate within the context of Gurmat and within the boundaries of the rules made by this forum.

sirf te sirf Dasmesh Jee de darbar da kookar

~ Mehtab Singh


Re: The high moral character of Sri Laxman Ji
Posted by: kulbir singh (IP Logged)
Date: October 08, 2008 09:57AM

I vouch for what Veer Mehtab Singh has written. It is a matter of pride for us Sikhs that this veer after studying Sikhi, has adopted Sikhi. I remember many years ago when this veer stopped cutting hair and recently I believe he took amrit also. Yes, this veer is from a Hindu background but that should not go against him. I have never met this veer but I have corresponded with him a few times via email and have found him to be faithful to Sikhi. If you read his posts on our site and other sites, you would realize that he is faithful to Sikhi. Let's not discourage such people who have left the faiths they were born in and adopted Gursikhi.

My request to you Veer Mehtab Singh is to not let this hurt your heart. I beleive if Veer Sukhbir Singh knew about you, he would have never included you in that list.

Kulbir Singh


Re: The high moral character of Sri Laxman Ji
Posted by: xzik101 (IP Logged)
Date: October 08, 2008 11:39AM

LOL at Sukhpreet Singh. you actually think I'm doing the same work as RSS? LOL

Did you not read my replies to Bibi Harjas Kaur when she tried to claim Sikhi is a Vaishnav faith? Yet I'M still supporting RSS? Just because I praise a person of Hindu Dharm means I subscribe to Hindu Dharm? I guess using that logic most Kathavachaks(including all the Bhindrawalay Sants) are also doing Prachar of RSS since many times they use stories from ancient epics of Hindu Dharm to teach a lesson. I also praise Buddha, does that mean I subscribe to the Buddhist faith? NO!

This type of Hindu Phobic thinking actually does more damage than good for our Panth. It's due to this Hindu Phobic attitude that Kala Afghanists have discarded everything within Sikhi that we share in common with Hindus like the concept of reincarnation, karma, Amritvela etc.

Obviously we are distinct just like the Buddhists and Jains are distinct from Hindus, but lets not go down the same road as Kala Afghanists did. Overly Hindu phobic thinking is a very slippery slope. The next step of people with tooo much Hindu Phobia always ends up to start denying Gurbani especially Dasam Bani and Bhagat Bani as the Kala Afghanists have done. I hope you do not go down that path because this is a path that many Sikhs have (unfortunately) gone into including majority Sikh missionaries college people.


Re: The high moral character of Sri Laxman Ji
Posted by: scimitar (IP Logged)
Date: October 09, 2008 03:34AM

kulbir singh jis views have hit me.. we are not converting to anyones religion by looking at goons of others..that said guru sahibs sikhs are amazing in history unparralelled..

the strentgh of your sikhi, the nam you jap the bani you read is not about to be washed away with a thread merely looking at the virtue of a man whos long gone..

bhai mehtab singhs posts have always been positive throughout time. We all come from somewhere, n the door at darbar sahib is open to four corners of the world and the panj piarey came from different parts of india. if someone questions his origins, remember when you are judged next as bin laden or taliban down the road, workplace shopping centre. To me a convert is like a diamond that shines, we dont seek them out but when somehow they arrive at sikhi we should respect them as we do our own parivar.

we all know the rss and fanatic mussleh are trying n have made a meal out of the community in one place or another.

but is it the fault of every hindu or muslim in the world that punjabi veer are so enngrossed in alcohol, drugs, hair cuts, chicken, lamb, mince, enforcing 5000 year old caste system, following rituals, rakhris fasts etc, worshipping tombs of their anesctors. In my eyes our own people made soya keema out of themselves for rss to devour.. they voted the congress back in punjab how many panthic bodies will go to the place where segregation of caste system is enforced in punjab?

the inroads that are made are at the blessings of these punjabi veers. that leaves gurmukhs in a smaller minority.

the rss should be fronted all the time every time, but the long term problem looks like is athiesm, laziness n lack of belief inside our own people.

Until they sort themselves out the rss will step up..i think rich sikhs world over should get together n organise seva n parchar in villages of punjab, one hand seva is done like greater access to natural resources, education, gender equality, at same time sikhi parchar.

enuff aponey r loaded to the hilt in canada america uk

how cowardly n weak is that, our own people discard their values? while bhai hakikat rai laid his karbani.

if the rss is beating inside the hearts of punjabis for material comfort then you need to tap in wid sikhi.

we cant sit about complaining, lets get together and make a better tomorow.


Re: The high moral character of Sri Laxman Ji
Posted by: M Singh (IP Logged)
Date: October 09, 2008 12:19PM

Inspiration, Inspiration, Inspiration; this was the theme with which this topic was started. Inspiration comes in an instant, at once and out of its own. It is welcome , if we get that. If some of us get it from Sri Lakshman; let them have that. If some of us have it from the character of Ravan; it is welcome again. (Negative traits of others can also be used to get inspiration). As sorrows and pains; inspire us to get attached to Gurbani; similarly, foolishness of others can be also be used to get inspiration to be aware of that. Neither Ravana was bad, nor Rama was good; as far as the SIKH STANDARDS are concerned.

If others feel; Hindu mythology is of no use to us ; the Khalsa Brotherhood; they are very much correct.They do not need inspiration from dead sources. If Guru Gobind Singh Ji has written about Hindu mythology; it never means, Guru Ji advised us to learn lessons from their deeds. Guru Ji told us the tales; to warn us; not to be misguided; by these silly so called spiritual epics. He made it open to the Sikhs; "O sikhs, see! there is nothing divine in these. They never talk about the Naam, Love of God. Simrit Bed Puran Pukaran Pothian; Naam Bina Sab kur Ghali Hochhian."

In Chandi di Vaar; there is a line, "Abhimaan utaran devetian, Mehkhasar Sumbh Upayan". (Devtas, so called, were proud of themselves; Akal Purakh, produced Mehkhasar to beak their ABHIMAAN.) Guru Ji did not side with Chandi or Durga; He told the story, simply.


Re: The high moral character of Sri Laxman Ji
Posted by: Harcharan Singh (IP Logged)
Date: October 10, 2008 03:25AM

Please enlighten us and reconcile your last statement to the story of Dusht Daman helping Chandi/Durga.....



Re: The high moral character of Sri Laxman Ji
Posted by: M Singh (IP Logged)
Date: October 10, 2008 08:37AM

"Please enlighten us and reconcile your last statement to the story of Dusht Daman helping Chandi/Durga..... "

Please, let us know where it is written like that, Dushat daman helping Chandi--------------

Sangat Ji, I am sorry , as I seem to be bit harsh in my last post.
Guru Ji Himself knows His Bani; we can make guess only.

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