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Detailed Vichar on Haume and it's Five Forces
Posted by: kulbir singh (IP Logged)
Date: September 30, 2008 09:26AM

Vaheguru created this trai-gunni Sansaar i.e. this world that is entangled in the three qualities of maya namely ignorance, passion and goodness referred to as Rajo Sato and Tamo. Everyone knows that this world is a temporary place and the roohs or the aatmas or the souls come to this world as per hukam of Vaheguru, that in turn is based on one’s karma.

The surprising thing is that despite knowing that this world is temporary and that their stay here is temporary, everyone is living in this world as if they are going to live forever. They work towards future and save for their future as if they are going to live here permanently. They wail and cry over ones who leave this world as if they are going to stay here forever. The connection that we have with this world or the thing or the force that convinces us that we are part of this world is in my opinion haume. The idea of considering oneself as this body (of five elements) and making all decision based on this false notion is haume.

Haume is our connection to this world and the moment this connection to this world falls, we immediately attain Vaheguru’s consciousness. How do we disconnect from this world and connect to our default or real consciousness? This is the whole purpose of Gurbani and Gurbani says that through the Shabad of Guru, we can connect to Vaheguru and breakoff from Haume. We have to realise the hukam of Vaheguru and this hukam of Vaheguru is none other than Naam - ਏਕੋ ਨਾਮੁ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਹੈ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਦੀਆ ਬੁਝਾਇ ਜੀਉ ॥੫॥ i.e. Japping one Naam is the hukam and Guru Sahib using their stamp Nanak say that Satgur has made us realise this truth now.

Vichaar on Different Forms of Haume

Haume or the connection to this world is attained through the 5 forces of Haume namely Kaam, Krodh, Lobh, Moh and Ahankaar and out of these, I think Moh and Ahankaar are the hardest to beat and kaam and Krodh the easiest to subdue. With basic rehit, Paath and Naam abhyaas the first three come under control. Moh or the attachment to this body, to the relatives of this body is a hard thing to do and finally to not have pride in our works is extremely hard thing to let to.

Kaam

If we really think of it what is Kaam? Kaam is the attraction that our mann feels looking at the body, the physical body of the opposite sex. What is this attraction? It is really weird if you think of it. This is one of the purest and rawest form of haume. Pure haume it is because this emotion triggers in for the physical body of the opposite sex. Higher the feeling of Kaam, more heavy the haume is in oneself.

The jeev is jyot but under the spell of Haume it thinks that it is a body and that by possessing the body of the opposite sex, it will get pleasure. Under the illusion of maya, the jeev thinks that by coming in touch with the body of the opposite sex, it will find pleasure. How can jyot saroopi jeev, get anand if it’s body touches or comes in contact with the physical body of the opposite sex? This is a very bizarre sensation that is felt because of haume. It’s like feeling anand if the clothes of our body touch with the clothes of the body of opposite sex. How can our body derive anand if it’s clothes touch clothes of the body of the opposite sex? Same way, how can the jeev that is Atma roop derive pleasure if it’s body touches the body of opposite sex? It is the illusion of haume that causes this pleasure.

Here is what Siri Guru jee states about Kaam in Gurbani:

ਹੇ ਕਾਮੰ ਨਰਕ ਬਿਸ੍ਰਾਮੰ ਬਹੁ ਜੋਨੀ ਭ੍ਰਮਾਵਣਹ ॥
ਚਿਤ ਹਰਣੰ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਲੋਕ ਗੰਮ੍ਯ੍ਯੰ ਜਪ ਤਪ ਸੀਲ ਬਿਦਾਰਣਹ ॥
ਅਲਪ ਸੁਖ ਅਵਿਤ ਚੰਚਲ ਊਚ ਨੀਚ ਸਮਾਵਣਹ ॥
ਤਵ ਭੈ ਬਿਮੁੰਚਿਤ ਸਾਧ ਸੰਗਮ ਓਟ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਰਾਇਣਹ ॥੪੬॥

Addressing Kaam, Siri Guru Panchmesh Pita jee say, O Kaam, you control the jeev and make it reside in hell (Narak Bishraamang) and then make it wander in various life forms. You control the jeevs and your reach is in the three worlds of creation. You destroy the Jap-Tap (Bhagti) and Sheel (good character) of jeevs. You give very little pleasure to the jeevs but in return of that little pleasure you give, the jeevs lose their wealth, you make them chanchal i.e. unstable. Whether the creatures are great or small, you reach all of them. In the last pankiti, Siri Guru jee address Kaam, O Kaam, the jeevs get liberated from you only when they reach Sadh-Sangat i.e. the sangat of Guru; therefore O Nanak, take refuge of Vaheguru Narayana.


Krodh

What is Krodh? Krodh is a force that takes over us when something happens contrary to our opinion. This emotion is very strongly related to the fifth evil Ahankaar or Abhimaan. If something hurts or pierces through to Abhimaam, then one reacts with Krodh to protect one’s Abhimaan. It has been noticed and studied that with increase in Kaam, Krodh too goes upwards. Here I have not been able to deduce a connection between Kaam and Krodh but there is a connection. A Kaami person is also a Krodhi person.

Krodh is such a strong feeling that when it overwhelms our mind it takes over Lobh and even Moh. Lobh is the want for worldly substances whereas Moh is the Kaam-less attachment towards the physical bodies of living entities in this world. When one is in Krodh, one is prepared to sacrifice Kaam, Moh and Lobh to satisfy Krodh but Abhimaan stays intact and actually goes up in this situation. In Krodh, one can hurt one’s loved ones and even kill them. We read stories of brother killing brother and son killing father. Later one, when one’s Krodh subsides, one regrets one’s actions towards loved ones. This proves that Krodh can overtake Moh when it’s in full force. Same way it overtakes Kaam and Lobh also when it is in full force.


Krodh does not have a long life and like Kaam stays dominant only for a short period of time but in this short time the consequences of the deeds done under the influence of these two forces can have very long lasting effects. One's whole life can be destroyed because of that one act done under the influence of Kaam or Krodh.


Siri Guru jee have written the following pauri about Krodh in Gurbani:

ਹੇ ਕਲਿ ਮੂਲ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੰ ਕਦੰਚ ਕਰੁਣਾ ਨ ਉਪਰਜਤੇ ॥
ਬਿਖਯੰਤ ਜੀਵੰ ਵਸ੍ਯ੍ਯੰ ਕਰੋਤਿ ਨਿਰਤ੍ਯ੍ਯੰ ਕਰੋਤਿ ਜਥਾ ਮਰਕਟਹ ॥
ਅਨਿਕ ਸਾਸਨ ਤਾੜੰਤਿ ਜਮਦੂਤਹ ਤਵ ਸੰਗੇ ਅਧਮੰ ਨਰਹ ॥
ਦੀਨ ਦੁਖ ਭੰਜਨ ਦਯਾਲ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਰਬ ਜੀਅ ਰਖ੍ਯ੍ਯਾ ਕਰੋਤਿ ॥੪੭॥

O Root of all disharmony (fights), O Krodha, you never feel mercy and compassion. You bring Vikaari persons under your control and then you make them dance like monkey is danced around by the monkey show-maker. The jeevs under your control become extremely lowly and therefore under the orders of Jammdoots, get punished in different ways. In the end using their Mohar, Siri Guru jee state the truth that only way to get protected from Krodh is to take the refuge of Vaheguru who is the destroyer of sorrows of humble ones.


Lobh

Lobh, Moh and Kaam are attractions to different forms of matter. While Kaam is the attraction to the body of opposite sex under the impression that the body will somehow yield pleasure, Lobh is the attraction to non-living entities of the matter world. It’s the force that makes a jeev want to possess a non-living entity e.g. money, car, house, land etc. Under the spell of Lobh, the one gets so blinded that one can even deceive one’s most loved ones. One can even deceive one’s Guru under the spell of Lobh and this is evident when we hear stories of people in religious centres stealing and embezzling funds from there. A brother under the spell of Lobh would even kill his brother to take over his brother’s share of wealth. Jahangir the Mughal emperor had his own son Khusrau blinded because Khusrao had revolted against his father and wanted to be the king. A person without Lobh would have given his kingdom to his son instead of having him killed or blinded. Duryodhana the Kuru prince wanted to be the king and for this reason fought the Mahabharata battle in which millions of people were killed. All this was done under the spell of Lobh and Ahankaar. Here is what Guru Sahib state about Lobha:

ਹੇ ਲੋਭਾ ਲੰਪਟ ਸੰਗ ਸਿਰਮੋਰਹ ਅਨਿਕ ਲਹਰੀ ਕਲੋਲਤੇ ॥
ਧਾਵੰਤ ਜੀਆ ਬਹੁ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰੰ ਅਨਿਕ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਬਹੁ ਡੋਲਤੇ ॥
ਨਚ ਮਿਤ੍ਰੰ ਨਚ ਇਸਟੰ ਨਚ ਬਾਧਵ ਨਚ ਮਾਤ ਪਿਤਾ ਤਵ ਲਜਯਾ ॥
ਅਕਰਣੰ ਕਰੋਤਿ ਅਖਾਦ੍ਯ੍ਯਿ ਖਾਦ੍ਯ੍ਯੰ ਅਸਾਜ੍ਯ੍ਯੰ ਸਾਜਿ ਸਮਜਯਾ ॥
ਤ੍ਰਾਹਿ ਤ੍ਰਾਹਿ ਸਰਣਿ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਬਿਗ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਪ੍ਤਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਰਿ ਨਰਹਰਹ ॥੪੮॥

O Lobha, even the most learned ones in your company commit sins of various kinds. Jeevs under your influence O Lobha, wander in different places and falter in different ways (committing sins by faltering to temptations). Jeevs under your influence have no shame (sharam, Lajjya) of friends, nor Guru, nor relatives and not even of parents i.e. one would deceive even them. Jeevs that are under your spell O Lobha, do such things that they should not be doing in the society, they eat such loathsome things that they should not be eating and utter such dirty words that they should not be uttering in society. Such is your influence. In order to get protected from Lobh, the jeev should beseech and plead before Vaheguru as - Crying out he should say Help! help! Save me from Lobha, O Hari Narhari Vaheguru.


Moh

Moh is the attraction towards non-living physical things; and Kaam and Moh are attractions towards bodies of living things. Kaam is a specialized kind of attraction feeling towards opposite sex but Moh is an attraction or attachment to the physical body of other jeevs and this attachment is Kaam-less. Most of the times Moh is stronger than Kaam but sometimes it loses to Kaam in which case we see despicable cases of incest. When Moh loses to Kaam then the jeev gets Kaamic attraction to the ones whom he has moh with i.e. father may get attracted kaam-wise to his daughter and so on. As Kalyug gets stronger and darker, Kaam is going to win increasingly against Moh and more and more such cases will surface. This prediction is written in Dasam Granth and in some Hindu Shasters as well.

Moh is the force that makes the jeev think that it owns or possesses the jeev or jeevs. Under the spell of Moh, the mother takes care of her baby more than she would care for herself. She cleans him, feeds him and what not. She stays awake so that her baby may sleep and will lie on a wet surface so that her baby may sleep on dry surface. She shows so much restrain and patience when the baby cries and she gets love on even unsavoury actions of the baby or a child. If the child pees on her, she feels pleasure in even that. She talks to the child for hours without getting any response in return. Think about it. Would a jeev who is selfish to the greatest extent do so much for another jeev, if Moh was not there? Never. The world is driven by moh. The world would collapse if Moh were to disappear.

Here is what Guru Sahib have to say about Moh:

ਹੇ ਅਜਿਤ ਸੂਰ ਸੰਗ੍ਰਾਮੰ ਅਤਿ ਬਲਨਾ ਬਹੁ ਮਰਦਨਹ ॥
ਗਣ ਗੰਧਰਬ ਦੇਵ ਮਾਨੁਖ੍ਯ੍ਯੰ ਪਸੁ ਪੰਖੀ ਬਿਮੋਹਨਹ ॥
ਹਰਿ ਕਰਣਹਾਰੰ ਨਮਸਕਾਰੰ ਸਰਣਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਗਦੀਸ੍ਵਰਹ ॥੪੫॥

O unbeatable warrior Moha, you are the great warrior of battle in which you crush the most strong warriors. You have bewitched the Ganas (residents of Shivpuri), the Gandharwas (the musicians and singers of Indrapuri), humans, devtas of heaven, animals and birds of this world. The only way to get protected from Moh is to take refuge of doer Vaheguru and by bowing before him.

Ahankaar

Ahankaar is to feel pride over our actions. Ahankar makes us feel special and the centre of the world. There is only one doer in this world i.e. Vaheguru but the jeev under the spell of Ahankaar thinks that he is the doer and for this reason it has to suffer the consequences of Karma i.e. actions done. If one were not to think oneself of doing any action, then Karma would not affect the jeev. This is what Guru Sahib has to say about Ahankaar:

ਹੇ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਣ ਮੂਲੰ ਅਹੰਕਾਰੰ ਪਾਪਾਤਮਾ ॥
ਮਿਤ੍ਰੰ ਤਜੰਤਿ ਸਤ੍ਰੰ ਦ੍ਰਿੜੰਤਿ ਅਨਿਕ ਮਾਯਾ ਬਿਸ੍ਤੀਰਨਹ ॥
ਆਵੰਤ ਜਾਵੰਤ ਥਕੰਤ ਜੀਆ ਦੁਖ ਸੁਖ ਬਹੁ ਭੋਗਣਹ ॥
ਭ੍ਰਮ ਭਯਾਨ ਉਦਿਆਨ ਰਮਣੰ ਮਹਾ ਬਿਕਟ ਅਸਾਧ ਰੋਗਣਹ ॥
ਬੈਦ੍ਯ੍ਯੰ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪਰਮੇਸ੍ਵਰ ਆਰਾਧਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰੇ ॥੪੯॥

Very clearly, Siri Guru jee has called Ahankaar an evil force and the root cause of taking birth and death. O root cause of birth and death (of Jeevs in this world), O evil force Ahankaara, through your many works of maya, the jeevs entangled in your web, throw their friendships with other jeevs and take up enmity. The jeevs take many births and deaths and suffer many sorrows and supposedly enjoy many kinds happiness. The jeevs wander in many scary jungles and suffer many diseases. The doctor of all these problems of Ahankaar is Vaheguru alone. Worship him by uttering his Naam again and again.


Lobh and Moh along with Hankaar are such evils that have long life and last for long time. Moh does not quickly come or leave immediately after effect. Moh is a perpetual and constant feeling towards the physical bodies (including our own body) we are related to e.g. father, mother, children, spouse etc. With time Moh increases constantly.

If we really look at these 5 evils we come to the conclusion that these five evils are really different forms of Haume. Haume is basically that feeling that makes us feel that we are this body as opposed to someone living in this body. We don’t realise that our body is to us what clothes are to our body. Just like our clothes are not our body, our body is not us. Different forms of haume falsely make the impression on us that we are this body.

When we feel attraction to the opposite sex, it is the Kaam form of Haume that connects us to this world. When we feel non-Kaam attraction to other bodies it is the Moh that has kicked in. When we feel attraction to non-living substances of this world it is Lobh form of Haume kicking in. When we feel pride over the works done by our body it is Hankaar or Abhimaan form of haume kicking in.

So now the question is how do we get out of this quagmire of Haume that is keeping us in this world? We should realise that it is this haume that brings us back into this world again and again because so long as we or our Mann continues to think that we are this human body or these physical seen substances and objects are ours, we continue to come here again and again.

The only way to get out is to connect to something that is beyond this world or something that is not from this world. That thing is Naam and nothing else but Naam. The word of Guru, that we get from Punj Pyaaray during amrit sinchaar is empowered by the spiritual power of the great shakti of Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee and by allowing our mann to indulge in listening to the sound vibrations of this Naam we connect to our real self i.e. our Aatma. Only through Naam we realise what Haume is and how to get out of Haume.

The bottomline is that haume is our connection to this world and this connection is only broken if our consciousness gets to its default position i.e. to Vaheguru.

If Vaheguru had not given Mamta (motherly love) to this world, no mother would have taken care of their children. If Vaheguru had not given this world Kaam, no one would have done any reproduction. Why would someone indulge in reproduction process if there was no incentive in this? Take out the pleasure from reproduction process and imagine what a silly process it is. Why would anyone love their children if there was no Moh.

While Haume is bad but Haume is the one that causes us to do Bhagti. If there was no haume, we would never indulge in Bhagti. Siri Guru jee very beautifully writes that Haume is a very deep rooted inveterate disease (deeragh Rog) but the medicine or cure to this disease lies in Haume itself:

ਹਉਮੈ ਦੀਰਘ ਰੋਗੁ ਹੈ ਦਾਰੂ ਭੀ ਇਸੁ ਮਾਹਿ ॥
(Haume is a deep rooted inveterate disease but cure for this also lies in it).

How does the cure lie in Haume? It is our Haume that first prompts us to do bhagti to get delivered from this world. It is our selfish thinking that prompts us to do udhaar or deliverance of this jeev-aatma. It is our curiosity to know the secrets of this world that prompts us to do bhagti and find out the secrets of this world. All these are forms of Haume.

The question of Haume is a very intricate one. It is quite hard to understand. This daas has presented his meagre understanding of haume based on Gurbani and books of accomplished Gursikhs that he has read. This daas does not claim that what he has written is correct. Just his meagre understanding. That's all.

May Guru Sahib do kirpa on us and may we realise our haume and free ourselves from Haume.

Daas,
Kulbir Singh



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/01/2008 12:10PM by admin.

 



Re: Detailed Vichar on Haume and it's Five Forces
Posted by: Singhni MiriPiri (IP Logged)
Date: October 01, 2008 01:15AM

Interesting post. You're right, only until we become completely detached and only attach ourselves to naam and gurbani we won't return back to this world but to Saachkhand. We don't have to reach saachkhand whilst alive to get it in the end, we just have to be a rehatwan sikh, stalwart in our code of conduct and completely detached from maya. Thats all Guru sahib wants from us and he will merge us with himself.

Vahegurujikakhalsavahegurujikifateh

 



Re: Detailed Vichar on Haume and it's Five Forces
Posted by: singhbj (IP Logged)
Date: October 01, 2008 07:16AM

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

ਵਡਹੰਸੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੩ ॥
Wadahans, Third Mehl:


ਹਉਮੈ ਨਾਵੈ ਨਾਲਿ ਵਿਰੋਧੁ ਹੈ ਦੁਇ ਨ ਵਸਹਿ ਇਕ ਠਾਇ ॥
Ego is opposed to the Name of the Lord; the two do not dwell in the same place.


ਹਉਮੈ ਵਿਚਿ ਸੇਵਾ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਤਾ ਮਨੁ ਬਿਰਥਾ ਜਾਇ ॥੧॥
In egotism, selfless service cannot be performed, and so the soul goes unfulfilled. ||1||


ਹਰਿ ਚੇਤਿ ਮਨ ਮੇਰੇ ਤੂ ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਕਮਾਇ ॥
O my mind, think of the Lord, and practice the Word of the Guru's Shabad.


ਹੁਕਮੁ ਮੰਨਹਿ ਤਾ ਹਰਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਤਾ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਹਉਮੈ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
If you submit to the Hukam of the Lord's Command, then you shall meet with the Lord; only then will your ego depart from within. ||Pause||


ਹਉਮੈ ਸਭੁ ਸਰੀਰੁ ਹੈ ਹਉਮੈ ਓਪਤਿ ਹੋਇ ॥
Egotism is within all bodies; through egotism, we come to be born.


ਹਉਮੈ ਵਡਾ ਗੁਬਾਰੁ ਹੈ ਹਉਮੈ ਵਿਚਿ ਬੁਝਿ ਨ ਸਕੈ ਕੋਇ ॥੨॥
Egotism is total darkness; in egotism, no one can understand anything. ||2||


ਹਉਮੈ ਵਿਚਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਵਈ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਨ ਬੁਝਿਆ ਜਾਇ ॥
In egotism, devotional worship cannot be performed, and the Hukam of the Lord's Command cannot be understood.


ਹਉਮੈ ਵਿਚਿ ਜੀਉ ਬੰਧੁ ਹੈ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਵਸੈ ਮਨਿ ਆਇ ॥੩॥
In egotism, the soul is in bondage, and the Naam, the Name of the Lord, does not come to abide in the mind. ||3||


ਨਾਨਕ ਸਤਗੁਰਿ ਮਿਲਿਐ ਹਉਮੈ ਗਈ ਤਾ ਸਚੁ ਵਸਿਆ ਮਨਿ ਆਇ ॥
O Nanak, meeting with the True Guru, egotism is eliminated, and then, the True Lord comes to dwell in the mind||


ਸਚੁ ਕਮਾਵੈ ਸਚਿ ਰਹੈ ਸਚੇ ਸੇਵਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੪॥੯॥੧੨॥
One starts practicing truth, abides in truth and by serving the True One gets absorbed in Him. ||4||9||12||

Source: [www.srigranth.org]

Gurbani clearly states that Naam & Haume are poles apart and can't be at the same place (body) at the same time.

To wipe out Haume, Gurmukhs must obey Guru Sahib jeeo's Hukum or Aagya.

This means understanding and following daily Hukumnama taken from Sri Guru Granth Sahib jeeo in regards to Sprirituality.

Gurmukhs must obey WAHEGURU jeeo's Bhana, practice the precedent similar to the one set by Bhai Mani Singh ji (Bandei v/s Tat Khalsa dispute issue).for settling all temporal matters.

Check out [www.panthic.org] for information in regards to the above incident.

Lastly would dedicate the following Shabad to Gurmukhs who obeyed Satguru's Hukum.

ਮਾਰੂ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
Maaroo, Fifth Mehl:


ਮਾਨ ਮੋਹ ਅਰੁ ਲੋਭ ਵਿਕਾਰਾ ਬੀਓ ਚੀਤਿ ਨ ਘਾਲਿਓ ॥
Pride, emotional attachment, greed and corruption are gone; I have not placed anything else, other than the Lord, within my consciousness.


ਨਾਮ ਰਤਨੁ ਗੁਣਾ ਹਰਿ ਬਣਜੇ ਲਾਦਿ ਵਖਰੁ ਲੈ ਚਾਲਿਓ ॥੧॥
I have purchased the jewel of the Naam and the Glorious Praises of the Lord; loading this merchandise, I have set out on my journey. ||1||


ਸੇਵਕ ਕੀ ਓੜਕਿ ਨਿਬਹੀ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ॥
The love which the Lord's servant feels for the Lord lasts forever.


ਜੀਵਤ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸੇਵਿਓ ਅਪਨਾ ਚਲਤੇ ਰਾਖਿਓ ਚੀਤਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
In my life, I served my Lord and Master, and as I depart, I keep Him enshrined in my consciousness. ||1||Pause||


ਜੈਸੀ ਆਗਿਆ ਕੀਨੀ ਠਾਕੁਰਿ ਤਿਸ ਤੇ ਮੁਖੁ ਨਹੀ ਮੋਰਿਓ ॥
I have not turned my face away from my Lord and Master's Command.


ਸਹਜੁ ਅਨੰਦੁ ਰਖਿਓ ਗ੍ਰਿਹ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਉਠਿ ਉਆਹੂ ਕਉ ਦਉਰਿਓ ॥੨॥
He fills my household with celestial peace and bliss; if He asks me to leave, I leave at once. ||2||


ਆਗਿਆ ਮਹਿ ਭੂਖ ਸੋਈ ਕਰਿ ਸੂਖਾ ਸੋਗ ਹਰਖ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਨਿਓ ॥
When I am under the Lord's Command, I find even hunger pleasurable; I know no difference between sorrow and joy.


ਜੋ ਜੋ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਭਇਓ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਕਾ ਸੋ ਮਾਥੈ ਲੇ ਮਾਨਿਓ ॥੩॥
Whatever the Command of my Lord and Master is, I bow my forehead and accept it. ||3||


ਭਇਓ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲੁ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਸੇਵਕ ਕਉ ਸਵਰੇ ਹਲਤ ਪਲਾਤਾ ॥
The Lord and Master has become merciful to His servant; He has embellished both this world and the next.


ਧੰਨੁ ਸੇਵਕੁ ਸਫਲੁ ਓਹੁ ਆਇਆ ਜਿਨਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਖਸਮੁ ਪਛਾਤਾ ॥੪॥੫॥
Blessed is that servant, and fruitful is his birth; O Nanak, he realizes his Lord and Master. ||4||5||

Source: [www.srigranth.org]

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

 



Re: Detailed Vichar on Haume and it's Five Forces
Posted by: chatrik (IP Logged)
Date: October 01, 2008 01:53PM

Piarey Kulbir Singh jeo,
Forgive me for my lack of understanding...but this is what the veechar I have been having regarding "KAAM".Correct me if I am wrong.
When we say KAAM...we just attch it to sexual desire...Dass disagrees with this.

Doing veechar.... Realized this.
Kaam....is derived from "KAAMNA"...which mean "Desire"...Desires(plural)=KAAMNAVA.

So the arth i assumed is DESIRE alone....and not sexual desire.

and there are endless desires in this world...

take the pleasures of the tounge for an example.

We are sitting...all the sudden we imagine something tasty such as,"Gulab Jamun" or Choc Moose cake....
our saliva starts dripping...
then the "Ichha"(desire) to taste such food comes into us....or we try to get by any mean possible.

Even OVER eating caused by uncontrolled desire for the various flavours of food?


even having desires for cars?

isn't this kaam?

Yes, kaam is important in life to sustain ourselves.agree with that...the problem arises when "IT" controls us....instead of vice versa...

Piyasi Chatrik
One drop...thats all what this chatrik is asking for......

 



Re: Detailed Vichar on Haume and it's Five Forces
Posted by: Atma Singh (IP Logged)
Date: October 02, 2008 03:07AM

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ

dear bhain jee singhnee miri piri,

"We don't have to reach saachkhand whilst alive to get it in the end, we just have to be a rehatwan sikh, stalwart in our code of conduct and completely detached from maya"

this is very interesting. please offer more thoughts as to why you believe this. is this view based on gurbaaNee or the accounts of gurmukhs?

veer kulbir singh, what are your thoughts regarding this?

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ

ਦਾਸ,
ਆਤਮਾ ਸਿੰਘ

 



Re: Detailed Vichar on Haume and it's Five Forces
Posted by: Singhni MiriPiri (IP Logged)
Date: October 02, 2008 06:42AM

Bhai sahib Atma singh,

I don't mean to put down sants, but most of them, really all of them didn't reach saach khand whilst alive, not even dharam khand. Our Gurus reached saach khand whilst alive, they were completely pure, so you can imagine how difficult it is for us moorakhs to accomplish that since we are filled with sins from many previous lives. Not even Bhagats like Bhagat Kabeer ji, Bhagat Naam Dev ji, etc reached saach khand whilst alive. From own experience Daas found this out.

The whole point is that if we detach ourselves from maya and attach ourselves to naam and Gurbani, we will go to where that originates; Saach khand. Even having one attachment to maya e.g. spouse, children, wealth, sleep, food - we can't even go to saach khand for having that. Thats how detached we must be. Guru sahib is very compassionate and he forgives us for our past karams, sins and lets us enter saach khand. There won't be any need for us to return if we dedicated our entire life to Guru sahib. A rehatwan sikh will go to saach khand, but one who does shaheedi will be given the choice if they want to come back to do more seva.

Examples of Gurmukhs is shaheed bhai fauja singh. He would give his new clothes away and would always wear his old clothes. He moved out his house and lived in a small van. Babbar Sukhdev singh only ate chic peas. Normally we give one-tenth of our earnings for charity but Shaheed Bhai Raghbir singh only lived on one-tenth of his earnings and gave the rest away. Such Gurmukhs lived on naam and only took pleasure out of that. This is what true love is, any other love is ashes and dust

pehilaa maran kabool jeevan kee shhadd aas ||
First, accept death, and give up any hope of life.

hohu sabhanaa kee raenukaa tho aao hamaarai paas ||1||
Become the dust of the feet of all, and then, you may come to me. ||1||

Hope that makes sense.

Forgive Daas if Daas made any mistakes.

Vahegurujikakhalsavahegurujikifateh

 



Re: Detailed Vichar on Haume and it's Five Forces
Posted by: kulbir singh (IP Logged)
Date: October 02, 2008 08:25AM

Veer Chatrik jeeo,

I have heard this idea before that Kaam means desire and not only sexual desire. As you stated, it is said that this word 'kaam' is from 'kaamna' which means desire. I am not an expert on etymology of words but in this case, I think 'Kaam' is not derived from 'Kaamna'. Kaamna is a noun in feminine gender whereas 'Kaam' is a noun in masculine gender. When kaam means desire or wish, it is a Persian word Kaam but when Kaam comes in Gurbani in the meanings of sexual desire, it is derived from Sanskrit and is a noun of masculine gender. If it had been derived from Kaamna, most probably it would have been a feminine gender noun.

Please ponder upon the following pankiti in Bhagat baani of Raag Siri Raag:

ਉਛਲਿਆ ਕਾਮੁ ਕਾਲ ਮਤਿ ਲਾਗੀ ਤਉ ਆਨਿ ਸਕਤਿ ਗਲਿ ਬਾਂਧਿਆ ॥੨॥
When Kaam overflowed (in the jeev who became a youth), his intelligence or the wisdom got stained, then under the influence of Kaam, (O jeev, your relatives, sensing that Kaam is out of control in you) got a woman married to you (to contain your Kaam). This pankiti proves that Kaam has been used in the meanings of sexual desire.

ਤਰੁਣ ਤੇਜੁ ਪਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਅ ਮੁਖੁ ਜੋਹਹਿ ਸਰੁ ਅਪਸਰੁ ਨ ਪਛਾਣਿਆ ॥ ਉਨਮਤ ਕਾਮਿ ਮਹਾ ਬਿਖੁ ਭੂਲੈ ਪਾਪੁ ਪੁੰਨੁ ਨ ਪਛਾਨਿਆ ॥
When the youth (javaani) is at it's utmost in you, then you O Jeev look at the faces of other women so unashamedly that you don't even see sar-apsar i.e. right timing or wrong timing i.e. you don't care about the consequences of it. This way you are so intoxicated in Kaam that you consider not what is sin and what is good deed (punn).

It is clear in the above pankitis as well that Kaam is in reference to sexual desire.


Please ponder upon the following pankiti:

ਕਾਮੁ ਚਿਤੈ ਕਾਮਣਿ ਹਿਤਕਾਰੀ ॥ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਬਿਨਾਸੈ ਸਗਲ ਵਿਕਾਰੀ ॥ ਪਤਿ ਮਤਿ ਖੋਵਹਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਿਸਾਰੀ ॥੪॥
(The lover of woman, contemplates Kaam (sexual desire). Krodh destroys all persons who indulge in Vikaars. This way by forgetting Naam, they lose their honour.

In the above pankiti the word Kaam appears with Kamni which means woman. Shows clearly that this word is used in the meanings of sexual desire.


Please look at the following pankiti:

ਖੁਧਿਆ ਤ੍ਰਿਸਨਾ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਬੁਰੀ ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਵਿਕਰਾਲੁ ॥

In this pankiti ਖੁਧਿਆ and ਤ੍ਰਿਸਨਾ appear along with Kaam clearly distinguishing between ordinary desire and sexual desire. ਖੁਧਿਆ ਤ੍ਰਿਸਨਾ mean hunger and desire/greed. Kaam in the same pankiti cannot mean desire but means sexual desire.


Quote:
Even OVER eating caused by uncontrolled desire for the various flavours of food?


even having desires for cars?

isn't this kaam?

While I agree such desires as stated above in the quote should be eschewed by a Gursikh but at the same time as per my meagre understanding, Kaam is more related to sexual desire, when it is used in the meanings of one of the 5 basic vices.

Having said that, the word kaam has other meanings as well. Kaam also means task and it also means desire. The word kaam in the meaning of task is also a masculine gender noun but when it means Farsi-wala Kaam, I believe it's in feminine gender. I could be wrong on this one though, I will have to re-check this one.

Baaki bhai Guru Sahib diyaan Guru Sahib hee jaande hun.

Daas,
Kulbir Singh



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/02/2008 10:23AM by admin.

 



Re: Detailed Vichar on Haume and it's Five Forces
Posted by: hopeless (IP Logged)
Date: October 02, 2008 09:15AM

there really is no argument about this as we all know the most damaging and strongest desire we have is sexual, so if this topic in anyway trys to detract our clever mind from gurbani warnings of kaam being related to sexual desire, then this is very dangerous talk and probably anti-gurmat.........i believe just one look at a dodgy website no matter how much kamai u have can set off a chain of events within 24 hours that could destroy your sikhi jeevan.......take it from me its like dancing with the devil....literally......and it will be more than just your fingers that get burnt.......in hell.

 



Re: Detailed Vichar on Haume and it's Five Forces
Posted by: singhbj (IP Logged)
Date: October 02, 2008 10:46AM

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Kulbir Singh ji & chatrik ji,

Kaam has more than one meaning as stated in Gurbani. One must understand the context in which it is used.


ਮੇਰੇ ਮਨ ਜਪਿ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਨ ਅਕਥ ਸੁਨਥਈ ॥
O my mind, chant the Glorious Praises of the Lord, which are said to be inexpressible.


ਧਰਮੁ ਅਰਥੁ ਸਭੁ ਕਾਮੁ ਮੋਖੁ ਹੈ ਜਨ ਪੀਛੈ ਲਗਿ ਫਿਰਥਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Righteousness and Dharmic faith, success and prosperity, pleasure, the fulfillment of desires and liberation - all follow the humble servant of the Lord like a shadow. ||1||Pause||

Source: [www.srigranth.org]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ਧਰਮ ਅਰਥ ਕਾਮ ਸਭਿ ਪੂਰਨ ਮਨਿ ਚਿੰਦੀ ਇਛ ਪੁਜਾਏ ॥
He is overflowing with Dharmic faith, wealth and success; He fulfills the desires of the mind.

Source: [www.srigranth.org]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ਇਛਾ ਪੂਰਕੁ ਸਰਬ ਸੁਖਦਾਤਾ ਹਰਿ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਵਸਿ ਹੈ ਕਾਮਧੇਨਾ ॥
The Lord is the Fulfiller of desires, the Giver of total peace; the Kaamadhaynaa, the wish-fulfilling cow, is in His power.


ਸੋ ਐਸਾ ਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਈਐ ਮੇਰੇ ਜੀਅੜੇ ਤਾ ਸਰਬ ਸੁਖ ਪਾਵਹਿ ਮੇਰੇ ਮਨਾ ॥੧॥
So meditate on such a Lord, O my soul. Then, you shall obtain total peace, O my mind. ||1||

Source: [www.srigranth.org]

................................................................................

Singhni MiriPiri ji,

ਨਿੰਦਾ ਭਲੀ ਕਿਸੈ ਕੀ ਨਾਹੀ ਮਨਮੁਖ ਮੁਗਧ ਕਰੰਨਿ ॥
It is not good to slander anyone, but the foolish, self-willed manmukhs still do it.


ਮੁਹ ਕਾਲੇ ਤਿਨ ਨਿੰਦਕਾ ਨਰਕੇ ਘੋਰਿ ਪਵੰਨਿ ॥੬॥
The faces of the slanderers turn black, and they fall into the most horrible hell. ||6||

Source: [www.srigranth.org]

Please be very very careful and refrain yourself from slandering anyone. Kindly remove your comments about Bhagat ji's, you will have to face very bad consequences as a result of your moorakhta. Go and beg forgiveness from Guru Granth Sahib jeeo.



ਭਗਉਤੀ ਭਗਵੰਤ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਾ ਰੰਗੁ ॥(SGGS jeeo-274)

Satguru jeeo equates Bhagaautee=Bhagvant=Bhagat ka rang


ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਭਗੌਤੀ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਕੈ ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਲਈਂ ਧਿਆਇ ॥(SDGS ji-298)

Bhagaautee is supreme !

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

 



Re: Detailed Vichar on Haume and it's Five Forces
Posted by: Singhni MiriPiri (IP Logged)
Date: October 02, 2008 01:12PM

singhbj,

Please forgive Daas if daas hurt you in any way but there was no slander involved. The Bhagats could no way go to saach khand without Guru sahib, Guru Nanak Dev Ji was the first to go the saach khand! When Guru nanak first became Guru, then they were allowed in saach khand through him. It is a basic fact in order to get to saach khand you need the true Guru: Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Bhai Sahib Randhir singh also mentions that they had to go through Guru sahib to get to saach khand.

Please re-read what Daas wrote and don't just pick parts to argue against. Daas was talking about reaching saach khand WHILST ALIVE. There is a big difference between reaching that very very HIGH level whilst alive and going there when you leave this world. You can still be a Gurmukh and not reach saach khand whilst alive. Again, Daas said it is from own personal experience. There are Gurmukhs that reached saach khand whilst alive e.g. Baba Deep singh, Baba Buddha Ji, etc. HOWEVER that does NOT make them any difference between other rehatwan sikhs since Guru sahib sees no difference. They all will or have reach there in the end.

How could Daas be slandering them. Daas is lowest than them all. If Daas is still alive today and hasn't gone to saach khand then there is something really wrong with Daas. How could anyone think that reaching saach khand is easy. Only Guru sahib can take us there in the end. Please read Jaap sahib, see how great God's qualities are. How can such moorakhs like Daas ever achieve those great qualities. How can it be easy for a human to reach that supreme level all in one life.

 



Re: Detailed Vichar on Haume and it's Five Forces
Posted by: singhbj (IP Logged)
Date: October 03, 2008 07:51AM

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Singhni MiriPiri ji,

Nobody can ever judge and compare Bhagat ji's with any other person who didn't write Gurbani.

You are still being moorakh and stereo type by commenting on Bhagat ji's.

ਦਾਸ ਅਨਿੰਨ ਮੇਰੋ ਨਿਜ ਰੂਪ ॥
Says God: my slave is devoted only to me; he is in my very image.


ਦਰਸਨ ਨਿਮਖ ਤਾਪ ਤ੍ਰਈ ਮੋਚਨ ਪਰਸਤ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਕਰਤ ਗ੍ਰਿਹ ਕੂਪ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
The sight of him, even for an instant, cures the three fevers; his touch brings liberation from the deep dark pit of household affairs. ||1||Pause||


ਮੇਰੀ ਬਾਂਧੀ ਭਗਤੁ ਛਡਾਵੈ ਬਾਂਧੈ ਭਗਤੁ ਨ ਛੂਟੈ ਮੋਹਿ ॥
The devotee can release anyone from my bondage, but I cannot release anyone from his.


ਏਕ ਸਮੈ ਮੋ ਕਉ ਗਹਿ ਬਾਂਧੈ ਤਉ ਫੁਨਿ ਮੋ ਪੈ ਜਬਾਬੁ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥੧॥
If, at any time, he grabs and binds me, even then, I cannot protest. ||1||


ਮੈ ਗੁਨ ਬੰਧ ਸਗਲ ਕੀ ਜੀਵਨਿ ਮੇਰੀ ਜੀਵਨਿ ਮੇਰੇ ਦਾਸ ॥
I am bound by virtue; I am the Life of all. My slaves are my very life.


ਨਾਮਦੇਵ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਜੀਅ ਐਸੀ ਤੈਸੋ ਤਾ ਕੈ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਪ੍ਰਗਾਸ ॥੨॥੩॥
Says Naam Dayv, as is the quality of his soul, so is my love which illuminates him. ||2||3||

Source: [www.srigranth.org]


Baba Sheikh Farid ji, Bhagat Namdev ji, Bhagat Kabir ji, Bhagat Dhanna Ji, Bhagat Jaidev ji, Bhagat Pipa ji, Bhagat Ravidas ji, Bhagat Sadhna ji and Bhagat Trilochan ji were born before Guru Nanak Dev ji.


This means that they met Bhagwan (Akal Purakh) and were enlightened first.

Because of their true devotion to Bhagwan they were blessed with greater powers than Lord himself. This is explained in the Shabad above.

Khalsa soe jo ninda tiyage !

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

 



Re: Detailed Vichar on Haume and it's Five Forces
Posted by: Devil (IP Logged)
Date: October 03, 2008 12:34PM

singhbj ji, this is what bhai sahib randhir singh said about the bhagats:

The mantar they recited, raam, only had the power to take them upto karam khand. Now, when the fifth Nanak, Guru Arjun Dev Ji became Guru he called all the bhagats down from karam khand. He then made each one of them recite bani and put their name in the bani that he made them recite, such as -

"kehi kabeer mil a(n)th kee baelaa ||4||2||
Says Kabeer, O Lord, please meet me - this is my very last chance! ||4||2||"

After the bani was recited, it now being under their name, THEY WERE THEN ALLOWED TO ENTER SAACHKHAND THROUGH THE TRUE GURU.

Everyone knows only through a guru can naam be implanted inside us, eg bhagat ramanand being the guru of Bhagat Kabeer ji implanted raam naam inside him. BUT to enter SAACHKHAND ONE NEEDS THE TRUE!! GURU!! SATGURU NANAK AS THEIR GURU. Guru Nanak Dev Ji had Vaheguru Ji as his Guru, and this is the difference between him and the bhagats.

If the bhagats reached saachkhand before Guru Nanak then they would have been our Guru, but Guru Nanak Dev Ji was the first. In baba harnaam singh's (rampurkhera wala) book, se kineiya, he writes that Prophet mohammed and others visited him. Prophet mohammed said:

"You are blessed and truly fortunate to whom Guru Nanak
Dev Ji has shown the direct and easy method to attain enlightenment of
Almighty God especially in this age of kalyug. The followers of the
Great Guru Nanak Dev are not deriving the full benefit of his teachings.”

Here's another one, bhai sahib says in his book how bhagat prahlaad, bhagat suhkdev and sri raamchandr were liberated and allowed in saachkhand. They met Guru Amardas ji or Guru Raam das ji at a festival called Abhaijit - there is a whole shabad of this incident and these three have been mentioned also. Here's the link: [www.sikhitothemax.com]

Here's a few pointers to remember:

1. the bhagats bani in Guru Granth Sahib Ji is different from the bani they wrote while alive - read it yourself and see. Its on sacred-texts.com, find kabir's writings.

2. secondly you don't know the meaning of slander, only you've been slandering all this time. But don't worry you're forgiven.

3. whoever is still going through reincarnation and isn't trying to get out of it is a moorakh:

moorakh mugadhh anaathh cha(n)chal baleheen neech ajaanaa ||
I am foolish, stupid, masterless, fickle, powerless, lowly and ignorant.

binava(n)th naanak saran thaeree rakh laehu aavan jaanaa ||1||
Prays Nanak, I seek Your Sanctuary - please save me from coming and going in reincarnation. ||1||

4. I don't really care about what you choose to believe after this. I'm not trying to convince you.

 



Re: Detailed Vichar on Haume and it's Five Forces
Posted by: singhbj (IP Logged)
Date: October 05, 2008 11:41PM

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਬਿਨਾ ਹੋਰ ਕਚੀ ਹੈ ਬਾਣੀ ॥
Without the True Guru, other songs are false.


ਬਾਣੀ ਤ ਕਚੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਹੋਰ ਕਚੀ ਬਾਣੀ ॥
The songs are false without the True Guru; all other songs are false.


ਕਹਦੇ ਕਚੇ ਸੁਣਦੇ ਕਚੇ ਕਚੀ ਆਖਿ ਵਖਾਣੀ ॥
The speakers are false, and the listeners are false; those who speak and recite are false.


ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਿਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਰਸਨਾ ਕਹਿਆ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਜਾਣੀ ॥
They may continually chant, 'Har, Har' with their tongues, but they do not know what they are saying.


ਚਿਤੁ ਜਿਨ ਕਾ ਹਿਰਿ ਲਇਆ ਮਾਇਆ ਬੋਲਨਿ ਪਏ ਰਵਾਣੀ ॥
Their consciousness is lured by Maya; they are just reciting mechanically.


ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਹੋਰ ਕਚੀ ਬਾਣੀ ॥੨੪॥
Says Nanak, without the True Guru, other songs are false. ||24||

Source: [www.srigranth.org]


What is the point of reading Kachi bani or books, irrespective who wrote them, it can never be Equivalent to Gurbani.


ਭਗਤਾ ਕੀ ਚਾਲ ਨਿਰਾਲੀ ॥
The lifestyle of the devotees is unique and distinct.


ਚਾਲਾ ਨਿਰਾਲੀ ਭਗਤਾਹ ਕੇਰੀ ਬਿਖਮ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਚਲਣਾ ॥
The devotees' lifestyle is unique and distinct; they follow the most difficult path.


ਲਬੁ ਲੋਭੁ ਅਹੰਕਾਰੁ ਤਜਿ ਤ੍ਰਿਸਨਾ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਬੋਲਣਾ ॥
They renounce greed, avarice, egotism and desire; they do not talk too much.


ਖੰਨਿਅਹੁ ਤਿਖੀ ਵਾਲਹੁ ਨਿਕੀ ਏਤੁ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਜਾਣਾ ॥
The path they take is sharper than a two-edged sword, and finer than a hair.


ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਜਿਨੀ ਆਪੁ ਤਜਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਵਾਸਨਾ ਸਮਾਣੀ ॥
By Guru's Grace, they shed their selfishness and conceit; their hopes are merged in the Lord.


ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਚਾਲ ਭਗਤਾ ਜੁਗਹੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਨਿਰਾਲੀ ॥੧੪॥
Says Nanak, the lifestyle of the devotees, in each and every age, is unique and distinct. ||14||

Source: [www.srigranth.org]


By WAHEGURU jeeo's grace only the one's who were enlightened wrote Gurbani no body then, now or will ever equal that !

For Sikhs present Satguru are and will always be Dhun Dhun Sri Guru Granth Sahib jeeo (Bani) so there is no point of following Humans !

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

 



Re: Detailed Vichar on Haume and it's Five Forces
Posted by: Hargurmit (IP Logged)
Date: October 07, 2008 05:00AM

Dear Singhni Miripiri,

Vahiguru Jee Ka Khalsa, Vahiguru Jee Kee Fateh

I have enjoyed reading your posts in the past, but having read what you have writen below makes me introspect about all your writings so far:

<<

I don't mean to put down sants, but most of them, really all of them didn't reach saach khand whilst alive, not even dharam khand.
>>

This comment does not add shobha to you and should have been completely avoided. Its your ego getting in here and making observations about them.

<<
Our Gurus reached saach khand whilst alive, they were completely pure,
>>>
Gur Pameshwar eiko Jaan. Our Guru Sahibans were the Akal Purakh themselves. Even though Guru Sahib said mai huu param purakh koo dasa, yet the akal purakh told him, meeah tujeha apnna putt nivajah (maybe slightly wrong in the quote from my side but this is written extempoare)

So our Guru Sahibs came from, stayed in, are in and will always be in Sach Khand.

<<
A rehatwan sikh will go to saach khand, but one who does shaheedi will be given the choice if they want to come back to do more seva.
>>

There are no guarantees on this. A rehatvan Sikh and a Shaheed Singh are both part of vahigurus rachna and it is upto vahiguru to take whatever seva he wants from them. Your comments sound more like you are vahiguru, instead of a human.

<< When Guru nanak first became Guru, then they were allowed in saach khand through him.>>

Rubbish. Utter Rubbish. Guru Nanak Sahib was Guru from birth. He had come to dispel the darkness of the world. The dahee recognised that, the cobra recognised that, Rai bullar recognised this. Most others like you and me did not have eyes and hence they wrote the comments you have written above.

I think i better stop reading your articles going forward as you are more lost than most of us.

Best wishes
Hargurmit

 



Re: Detailed Vichar on Haume and it's Five Forces
Posted by: Singhni MiriPiri (IP Logged)
Date: October 07, 2008 08:28AM

What daas wrote was only praise to Vaheguru, Guru Ji, and all the Gurmukhs, who are all equally the same. There was no praise to Daas, Daas is not a Gurmukh and Daas is being honest not humble. Daas has nothing. To be honest, Daas doesn’t take pleasure from writing articles and prefers not to do it. Daas was given advice by someone to continue since it would help Daas’s spirituality. If you don’t want to read them, that’s fine.

“I don't mean to put down sants, but most of them, really all of them didn't reach saach khand whilst alive, not even dharam khand.
>>
This comment does not add shobha to you and should have been completely avoided. Its your ego getting in here and making observations about them.”

Of course, why would it add shobha to Daas. You’re right, Daas should have not told anyone that since others may take it to offence. Please forgive Daas but Daas wasn’t making observations about them. Bhai Atma Singh asked Daas how daas knows that we don’t need to reach saach khand while alive to go there in the end (afterlife). Daas said that most Maha purakhs didn’t all reach it while alive but did go there in the end. Daas was just trying to explain herself but Daas shouldn’t have mentioned Maha purakhs so please do forgive Daas for her mistakes.

“Our Gurus reached saach khand whilst alive, they were completely pure,
>>>
Gur Pameshwar eiko Jaan. Our Guru Sahibans were the Akal Purakh themselves. Even though Guru Sahib said mai huu param purakh koo dasa, yet the akal purakh told him, meeah tujeha apnna putt nivajah (maybe slightly wrong in the quote from my side but this is written extempoare)
So our Guru Sahibs came from, stayed in, are in and will always be in Sach Khand.”

Daas was not trying to say anything in disrespect to Guru sahib. Daas only got that from Bhai Gurdaas ji’s vaar:

pehilaa baabae paayaa bakhas dhar pisho dhae fir ghaal kamaaee|
First of all Baba Nanak obtained the gate of the grace (of Lord) and then He underwent and earned the rigorous discipline (of heart and mind).

raeth ak aahaar kar rorraa kee gur karee vishaaee|
He fed himself with sand and swallow-wort and made stones his bedding i.e. he enjoyed poverty too.

bhaaree karee thapasiaa vaddae bhaag har sio ban aaee|
He offered full Devotion and then he was fortunate to have proximity with God.

baabaa paidhaa sach khandd no nidh naam gareebee paaee|
Baba reached the region of Truth wherefrom he received Naam, the storehouse of nine treasures and humility.

Guru ji was the first to reach saach-khand. After doing what he did in order enter saach-khand he showed us the way to enter saach khand.

“A rehatwan sikh will go to saach khand, but one who does shaheedi will be given the choice if they want to come back to do more seva.
>>
There are no guarantees on this. A rehatvan Sikh and a Shaheed Singh are both part of vahigurus rachna and it is upto vahiguru to take whatever seva he wants from them. Your comments sound more like you are vahiguru, instead of a human.”

What Daas said about the shaheedi is something that Baba Gurbachan Singh knows of. However Daas was told not to tell others. Don’t be silly, Daas isn’t trying to sound like God. It may sound like that but Daas in no way thinks of herself to be chardikalaa, great, or whatever.

“<< When Guru nanak first became Guru, then they were allowed in saach khand through him.>>
Rubbish. Utter Rubbish. Guru Nanak Sahib was Guru from birth. He had come to dispel the darkness of the world. The dahee recognised that, the cobra recognised that, Rai bullar recognised this. Most others like you and me did not have eyes and hence they wrote the comments you have written above.”

Daas doesn’t understand what you mean here but please see bhai gurdaas ji’s vaar.

Again please forgive daas for her mistakes.

asee khathae bahuth kamaavadhae a(n)th n paaraavaar ||
I make so many mistakes, there is no end or limit to them.

har kirapaa kar kai bakhas laihu ho paapee vadd gunehagaar ||
O Lord, please be merciful and forgive me; I am a sinner, a great offender.

Take care.

Vahegurujikakhalsavahegurujikifateh

 



Re: Detailed Vichar on Haume and it's Five Forces
Posted by: Devil (IP Logged)
Date: October 07, 2008 11:28AM

Hargumit, heres a question: was bhai lehna ji guru from birth??

also no one cares if you read her articles. she said she got most of that knowledge from japping naam. btw bhai gurdaas says himself guru nanak dev wasn't guru from birth as explained in his vaar.

you people sound like the ones with the most hankaar judging others - you should read what you yourselves wrote, lol.

 



Re: Detailed Vichar on Haume and it's Five Forces
Posted by: kulbir singh (IP Logged)
Date: October 08, 2008 08:28AM

ਗੁਰਸਿਖ ਵੀਰੋ ਤੇ ਭੈਣੋ,

ਜੋ ਵੀ ਗੱਲ ਕਹਿਣੀ ਹੈ ਪਿਆਰ ਨਾਲ ਤੇ ਸ਼ਾਂਤੀ ਨਾਲ ਕਹੋ ਜੀ।

ਦਾਸ,
ਕੁਲਬੀਰ ਸਿੰਘ

 





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