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Opinions sought re: Shackle's viyakarN text
Posted by: Atma Singh (IP Logged)
Date: September 26, 2008 03:32AM

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ

khalsa jeeo,

a few of us are about to start working-through christopher shackle's 'an introduction to the sacred language of the sikhs', which is basically a whole course designed to familiarise someone with the gurmukhee script and, most notably, viyakarN.

- has anyone here used it to pick-up viyakarN?

- if so, what are your thoguths - what are the positives and negatives regarding Shackle's approach/perspective?

- anything else we should keep in mind whilst using this source?

it seems that Shackle's work is perhaps the only comprehensive text available in English which deals with viyakarN. if it turns out that it is also very good, i think this will be of major use to so many of us.

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ

ਦਾਸ,
ਆਤਮਾ ਸਿੰਘ

 



Re: Opinions sought re: Shackle's viyakarN text
Posted by: Harcharan Singh (IP Logged)
Date: September 26, 2008 05:56AM

Also see C. Shackles - Guru Nanank GLossary - It's an amazing resource.

If you can find a copy, lol:

[www.whsmith.co.uk]

We are blessed that such a great academic as C. Shackles has taken an interest in Sikhi (as well as outher South Asian Faiths) and published numerous works after astounding research on his part.

 



Re: Opinions sought re: Shackle's viyakarN text
Posted by: Harpartap Singh (IP Logged)
Date: September 26, 2008 07:02AM

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ

Veer ji,

I have been through the text extensively.

The approach it takes is absed on the student being familiar with the technical terms used by language students - it is very daunting initially.

However, having said this, it easier to pick up than simply using a book such as Professor Sahib singh ji's Gurbani Vaikaran or Bhai Sahib's Gurbani Laga Matra dhi vilakhanta because it assumes you have no knowledge of even basic "indian" grammar. The book starts off very slowly which is good and does not tackle whole topics such as masculine u ending nouns in one go.

It's limitation (as Shackle says himself) is taht the Viakarn he describes only relates to a portion of the Gurbani languages and is not universally applicable. For instance the Gurbani of Guru Teghj Bahadur ji and the Bhagat Sahibs is not really covered.

On the whole, I found it very useful. If you wish to discuss it further, please give me a call.

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ

 



Re: Opinions sought re: Shackle's viyakarN text
Posted by: Anonymous User (IP Logged)
Date: September 26, 2008 10:06AM

1. its out of print

2. what does he base his writtings on? prbably darpan or whatever those panjabi texts are called

3. "We are blessed that such a great academic as C. Shackles has taken an interest in Sikhi (as well as outher South Asian Faiths) and published numerous works after astounding research on his part." This is the attitude among sikhs that I find revolting.

how pathetic that we had to wait for a non-sikh to write such a book. what have the idiotic sikh proffessers in indian universities achieved? even a westerner (McLeod) was the first to write clear, comprehensive history attempt.

meanwhile i see books in panjab by so called pHD proffessors on crap like 'Sikhism and Existentialism- a comparison'. What use/interest is that to anyone.

wake up

 



Re: Opinions sought re: Shackle's viyakarN text
Posted by: Harcharan Singh (IP Logged)
Date: September 26, 2008 12:16PM

3. "We are blessed that such a great academic as C. Shackles has taken an interest in Sikhi (as well as outher South Asian Faiths) and published numerous works after astounding research on his part."

"This is the attitude among sikhs that I find revolting. how pathetic that we had to wait for a non-sikh to write such a book. what have the idiotic sikh proffessers in indian universities achieved? even a westerner (McLeod) was the first to write clear, comprehensive history attempt. "

Your statement is contradictory - you 1st say my attitude is revolting - then go on to indirectly justify my statement by pointing out the lack of academic effort by Sikhs themselves?

You need to lay off your tribalism. God exists in all, and intellgience and integrity is not limited to Sikhs - anyone can take an interest in anything and achieve great things.

It's good for people with better research and scientific (language) skills and an unbiased mindset to also look at Sikhi. Only a narrow minded tribalistic fanatic would have a problem with "westerners" takng a profound interest in Sikhi, esp highly intelligent ones like Christopher Shackles.

Go and have a cold bath.

 



Re: Opinions sought re: Shackle's viyakarN text
Posted by: Anonymous User (IP Logged)
Date: September 26, 2008 03:46PM

theres no contradiction. its your boot licking i objected to. the point about the lack of sikh effort was an seperate and extra part at the end (notice that it was in a new paragraph- would you like me to write you a book about english grammar?)

that no sikh intellectual has achieved anything accesble or interesting is probably extension of that sycohantic mindset. and "It's good for people with better research and scientific (language) skills and an unbiased mindset..." well you said it!

'tribalist'. yep that suits me fine.

intelligent person like christopher shackle? you've decided that before even reading the book. he could be some listless professor who has just translated from some panjabi books for all you know at this point.

good luck trying to understand your own religion by consulting people from outside it.

 



Re: Opinions sought re: Shackle's viyakarN text
Posted by: Harcharan Singh (IP Logged)
Date: September 28, 2008 09:02AM

I think it would be better if you stuck to your Neanderthal, one eyed tribal mentality, you would not get very far in educationing anyone in the fineries of the English language - especially if you think the conept of contradiction is only applicable within the same paragraph.

No one is trying to understand anything by consulting external resources alone. There are plenty of authors and books written by Sikhs and Sikh Academics that are nonsensical - so being a Sikh doesn't automatically make you right or knowledgable - research and study do have their strengths.

I personally am very grateful to poeple like Mcleod, who have given so much of their life to researching and translating all the puratan rehits into English for everyone without the language skills or access opportunity - to share.

For you, I would advise to study the very basic premise of Sikhi - i.e. to not judge people by their colour, ethnicity, faith or origin - but rather by their actions.

C Shackles is a South Indian language expert and teaches in th School of Oriental and African - one of the UKs and Europes leading Universities in the fields of Anthropology, Religion, Theology and Research.

Use some common sense, before firing your prejudice judgement - give the guy a chance and read his publications - then if you don't agree, provide constructive criticism.

For your info, I have a copy of the rare "A Guru Nanak Glossary" and I find it to be an invaluable resource. I know people who have read the above mentioned book and found it to be very good. Everyone brings new ideas and fills gaps in study - no one person is 100% correct par Sat-Guru - we should respect those who give their time to intense study without bias. Not everyone "white" person had a Christian bias or conversion/defamation agenda.

 



Re: Opinions sought re: Shackle's viyakarN text
Posted by: Anonymous User (IP Logged)
Date: September 28, 2008 11:50AM

oh dear, where to begin? again classic case of people argueing with their own imagination.

1. "you think the conept of contradiction is only applicable within the same paragraph." that wasnt actually said. but nevermind, i dont want to embarrass you.

2. "for everyone without the language skills or access opportunity - to share." you dont even have panjabi language skills what on earth are you expecting to learn? oh wait i see:

3. "For you, I would advise to study the very basic premise of Sikhi - i.e. to not judge people by their colour, ethnicity, faith or origin - but rather by their actions." 'Very basic premise' of sikhi according to who??? this is just the kind of nonesense all people who dont know anything say these days. another example is: '<insert religion> is a way of life and not a religion'.

4. where did i crticise Shackle? It was your attitude I pointed out along with lack of work by siksh themselves. And whose the one praising the guy and his work before he's even read it? i cant even believe i have to point this out.

5. The kind of praise you give for SOAS- hwo many jokers do you think are out there praising Nehru University Delhi for the same thing?

all these things were said for your benefit, not my gratification

 



Re: Opinions sought re: Shackle's viyakarN text
Posted by: Harcharan Singh (IP Logged)
Date: September 28, 2008 11:43PM

"all these things were said for your benefit, not my gratification"

If you say so.

Not only do you contradict yourself, you are also extraordinarily presumptuous.

I think self gratification is the least of your problems brother.

Nice talking to you and thanks for your invaluable contribution to this thread.

 



Re: Opinions sought re: Shackle's viyakarN text
Posted by: Atma Singh (IP Logged)
Date: September 29, 2008 04:00AM

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ

veers harcharan singh/harpartap singh,

thanks for ur constructive comments.

we got a few copies of 'guru nanak glossary'. we managed to get the very last copy the SOAS book shop had of 'Sacred Langugae of the Sikhs' - it was gathering dust in their storage area in the wrong location. they said that there may be a samll print-run later this year.

veer kulbir singh,

have you had a chance to look at shackle's SLS? it would be good to get your views.

so far, we're reading part 1 (gurmukhee script) and the first chapter of part 2 (masculine nouns - singular direct case).

shackle does use very specific grammatical terms but going through it slowly, digesting the examples given, generating your own examples, trying to decode the grammatical terms or look them up (this free software is proving quite useful: [www.usingenglish.com] ) has helped unravel things.

i think this teach-yourself course is going to help us massively and i see the next logical stepping-stone as bhai sahib's book which seems much more instantly accessible than talwara jee's 2 volumes...that will probably be the third step.

a nice touch i found is that shackle refuses to call gurbaaNee 'panjabee/old panjabee/archaic panjabee'. he uses the abbreviation SLS whenever referring to gurbaaNee, which i find quite touching.

also, shackle being a non-sikh, has eyes which are in a sense more aloof and disconnected from that of the average sikh and their experience of gurbaaNee...the outsider may sometimes spot things that the insider has either taken for granted or overlooked due to familiarity.

therefore, having en eminent non-sikh linguist look at the technical nature of gurbaaNee viyakarN is actually a positive thing.

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ

ਦਾਸ,
ਆਤਮਾ ਸਿੰਘ

 



Re: Opinions sought re: Shackle's viyakarN text
Posted by: Harcharan Singh (IP Logged)
Date: September 29, 2008 08:37AM

"we managed to get the very last copy the SOAS book shop had of 'Sacred Langugae of the Sikhs' - it was gathering dust in their storage area in the wrong location. they said that there may be a samll print-run later this year."

Good work Veer Ji.

Also, I would like to say (without risking ustat), your efforts here are hugely inspiring. I pray Sat-Guru continues to bless you with vision and effort.

Dhanvaad.

 





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