ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ

khalsa jeeo,

i currently believe that it is Maharaaj Jee's Pleasure and Will that GurbaaNee spoken/recited/sung by His Beloveds has more effect upon listeners than the same GurbaaNee if it were spoken/recited/sung by those who are Dhillae and further away from His Nazar.

let's discuss this and see if it is true or not using GurbaaNee, Sakheeaa(n) etc.

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ

ਦਾਸ,
ਆਤਮਾ ਸਿੰਘ

vjkkvjkf

You give ras to the listeners’ ears by playing good tunes
(Mirzaa Saahibaa, etc) but you do not enjoy spiritual ras nor do you give it to the sangat."

The above are the words from Dr Surinder Singh Jee.

Bhai Atma Singh you are right in what you have stated aswell, but if someone does keertan then they are also trying to get closer to guru sahib which is a good thing, you can see it two ways

bhul chuk dee kima

vjkkvjkf

There are at least three components for Kirtan. One is Gurbani. Second is Sangeet and third is Kirtaniya i.e. the one singing. All three cast effect on the listener. Gurbani is Gurbani and what to say about it. It's a given. The next component is sangeet i.e. the music aspect of it. If combination of sur, taal and sweet voice is reached then it helps the surthee to engage in Gurbani. But it should be remembered that if the sangeet aspect overshadows the Gurbani component, then it is hard to derive Hari Rass from it.

The third very important component is the kirtaniya. The jeevan of the kirtaniya and the emotion level of the kirtaniya at the time of singing kirtan definitely casts effect on the sangat. If the kirtaniya is dhilla plus at the time of kirtan his or her mind is wandering on something else, a proportionate effect will cast on the the sangat.

On the other hand imagine if the kirtaniya is an accomplished Gursikh with immense love for Guru Sahib and if such person does kirtan with focused mind, and has respectable command over sur and taal, how much rass it will give sangat.

Many times we see people are very trained in the sangeet aspect but lack spiritual jeevan. The rass-bhinaa kirtan is that kirtan that is sung by an accomplished Gursikh who is skilled in sangeet aspect as well. One of the kirtaniya who has both jeevan and skill is Bhai Jeevan Singh. I have not heard a better kirtaniya than them. Another good example is Bhai Sahib Harbhajan Singh Shatrana who currently reside at Anandpur Sahib. They too are just amazing kirtaniya. Third kirtaniya that I have listened to and in who's kirtan I found abundant bairaag is Master Joginder Singh Sandhaudwale. Rest Bhai apni apni pasand hai. I just wrote what I have experienced.

Daas,
Kulbir Singh



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/11/2008 12:32PM by admin.

i heard some Gurbani Kirtan sang by Lata Mangeshkar (as a recording) and really enjoyed it. she probably doesnt know the slightest thing about sikhi (or didnt at the time- that recording must be quite old). but it sounded good due to her talent for signing i suppose. am i shallow?

on the other hand i heard Jagit Singh singing some non-kirtan verses from Dasam Granth and I found his sickly-sweet toning irritating and seemingly pakhand (Guru forgive me for saying that), also his 'praying' posturing in the video also made me feel sick.

I once heard some kirtan at a Guruduara- it was Anand paath. I dont know what it was about that paath- im telling you it was neither emotional nor dry- but it was AWESOME. i wish i knew who those guys were or even taped it. it was like waking up and seeing the sun.

Kulbir Singh jee could you please provide some links to hear the kirten of the gursikhs you mentioned?

thank you

vahegurujikakhalsavahegurujikifateh!

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

ਸੁਣਿ ਬੇਨੰਤੀ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਅਪੁਨੇ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਇਹੁ ਸੁਖੁ ਮਾਗੈ ॥

Hear my prayer, O Lord and Master; Nanak begs for this happiness:


ਜਹ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਸਾਧੂ ਗਾਵਹਿ ਤਹ ਮੇਰਾ ਮਨੁ ਲਾਗੈ ॥੪॥੬॥

whereever Your Holy Saints sing the Kirtan of Your Praises, let my mind be attached to that place. ||4||6||

Source: [www.srigranth.org]

Keertan sung by Saadhuu (one who is Santokhi).

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

ਕੋਈ ਗਾਵੈ ਰਾਗੀ ਨਾਦੀ ਬੇਦੀ ਬਹੁ ਭਾਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਨਹੀ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਭੀਜੈ ਰਾਮ ਰਾਜੇ ॥

Some sing of the Lord, through musical Ragas and the sound current of the Naad, through the Vedas, and in so many ways. But the Lord, Har, Har, is not pleased by these, O Lord King.


ਜਿਨਾ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਕਪਟੁ ਵਿਕਾਰੁ ਹੈ ਤਿਨਾ ਰੋਇ ਕਿਆ ਕੀਜੈ ॥

Those who are filled with fraud and corruption within - what good does it do for them to cry out?


ਹਰਿ ਕਰਤਾ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਜਾਣਦਾ ਸਿਰਿ ਰੋਗ ਹਥੁ ਦੀਜੈ ॥

The Creator Lord knows everything, although they may try to hide their sins and the causes of their diseases.


ਜਿਨਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹਿਰਦਾ ਸੁਧੁ ਹੈ ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਲੀਜੈ ॥੪॥੧੧॥੧੮॥

O Nanak, those Gurmukhs whose hearts are pure, obtain the Lord, Har, Har, by devotional worship.

Source: [www.srigranth.org]

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Veer Kulbir Singh Ji is correct with three components.

But the listener should also be included in the process. Kirtan process completes rather starts with the listener, I think. His state of mind, too matters. (If u are thirsty or hungery, u do not bother the cook)

Relation or information level of listener about Kirtania also matters. (unknown or unrelated kirtanias sometimes do magic. And u have to shut your information window about Kirtania, too.)

And the place also matters. (e.g.Sri harminder Sahib effect. And if u get a place in front of the kirtanias in Harminder, that is addtional effect.) -----

And the Guru's kirpa level on both Listener and Kirtania, at that time.
They say, Guru Himself watches and directs the process. He knows, who gets what.(Many a times it happens, my wife says, that was good and I say, oh no)
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Guru Kirpa Kare. Sangat Mile.