ਚੁਕਾਰਅਜ਼ਹਮਹਹੀਲਤੇਦਰਗੁਜ਼ਸ਼ਤ॥ਹਲਾਲਅਸਤਬੁਰਦਨਬਸ਼ਮਸ਼ੀਰਦਸਤ॥੨੨॥ (ਸ੍ਰੀ ਮੁਖਵਾਕ ਪਾਤਿਸ਼ਾਹੀ ੧੦॥)

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ਹਉਮੈ ਦੀਰਘ ਰੋਗੁ ਹੈ ਦਾਰੂ ਭੀ ਇਸੁ ਮਾਹਿ
Posted by: blacklion (IP Logged)
Date: September 09, 2008 04:03AM

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Guru Pyare Sadh Sangat Jio,

I am hoping to hear Vichaar on the following Pankti:
ਹਉਮੈ ਦੀਰਘ ਰੋਗੁ ਹੈ ਦਾਰੂ ਭੀ ਇਸੁ ਮਾਹਿ Ang 466

With kind thanks

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/09/2008 06:38AM by admin.

 



Re: ਹਉਮੈ ਦੀਰਘ ਰੋਗੁ ਹੈ ਦਾਰੂ ਭੀ ਇਸੁ ਮਾਹਿ
Posted by: kulbir singh (IP Logged)
Date: September 10, 2008 01:32PM

ਹਉਮੈ ਦੀਰਘ ਰੋਗੁ ਹੈ ਦਾਰੂ ਭੀ ਇਸੁ ਮਾਹਿ Ang 466

What an intricate pankiti it is. Different scholars have done different meanings of this pankiti. Below is a note on this pankiti by Professor Sahib Singh:

'ਦਾਰੂ ਭੀ ਇਸੁ ਮਾਹਿ' ਬਾਰੇ ਨੋਟ: ਸ਼ਬਦ 'ਭੀ' ਜਿਸ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਦੇ ਨਾਲ ਵਰਤਿਆ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਉਚਾਰਨ ਵਿਚ ਤੇ ਅਰਥ ਵਿਚ ਉਸ ਉੱਤੇ ਜ਼ੋਰ ਦੇਈਦਾ ਹੈ। ਇਸ ਉਪਰਲੀ ਤੁਕ ਵਿਚ ਸ਼ਬਦ 'ਦਾਰੂ' ਨੂੰ ਬਾਕੀ ਸ਼ਬਦਾਂ ਨਾਲੋਂ ਵਧੀਕ ਜ਼ੋਰ ਦੇ ਕੇ ਪੜ੍ਹਨਾ ਹੈ। ਇਸ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ ਪਾਠ ਕਰਨ ਦੇ ਨਾਲ ਹੀ ਇਸ ਦਾ ਅਰਥ ਭੀ ਖੁਲ੍ਹ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ। ਕਈ ਸੱਜਣ ਪਾਠ ਵੇਲੇ ਸ਼ਬਦ 'ਇਸੁ' ਉੱਤੇ ਜ਼ੋਰ ਦੇਂਦੇ ਹਨ, ਜਿਸ ਦਾ ਸਿੱਟਾ ਇਹ ਨਿਕਲਦਾ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਅਰਥ ਕਰਨ ਵੇਲੇ ਔਝੜੇ ਪੈ ਜਾਈਦਾ ਹੈ, ਕਿਉਂਕਿ ਵਧੀਕ ਧਿਆਨ ਸ਼ਬਦ 'ਇਸੁ' ਵਲ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ। ਇਹੀ ਕਾਰਨ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਕਈ ਸੱਜਣ ਇਸ ਤੁਕ ਦਾ ਅਰਥ ਕਰਨ ਵੇਲੇ ਇਹ ਪੁੱਛਦੇ ਸੁਣੀਦੇ ਹਨ ਕਿ 'ਇਸ ਹਉਮੈ ਦੇ ਵਿਚ ਹੀ ਦਾਰੂ ਕਿਸ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ ਹੈ'।

The meaning that Professor Sahib have done of this pankiti is as follows:

ਇਹ ਹਉਮੈ ਇਕ ਲੰਮਾ ਰੋਗ ਹੈ, ਪਰ ਇਹ ਲਾ-ਇਲਾਜ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ।

Professor Sahib Singh writes that though this disease of Haume is a chronic disease yet this disease is not without cure. The words ਦਾਰੂ ਭੀ mean that Daaroo vee hai i.e. there is a cure. ਇਸੁ ਮਾਹਿ has been interpreted as ਇਸ ਹਉਮੈ ਵਿਚ, ਇਸ ਹਉਮੈ ਦਾ।.

Faridkoti and Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh have done similar meanings of this pankiti. Bhai Sahib writes that while haume is a very chronic disease yet while Vaheguru has placed this haume inside the jeev, Vaheguru has also place disease right inside the jeev. The word ਇਸੁ in this case is an adjective of the inside of the jeev i.e. the mann of the jeev, the antashkaran of the jeev. ਦਾਰੂ ਭੀ ਇਸੁ ਮਾਹਿ then means that Daaroo too is placed in this (ਇਸੁ) jeev, where haume is placed.

Other scholars interpret this pankiti in the most interesting way. They write that while haume is a chronic disease yet the cure for it too lies in haume itself. How? It's haume (in this case good haume) that prompts one to think of one's salvation and this in turn prompts the jeev to find ways to get liberated. Eventually one is led to the Guru and one gets liberated.

In all three interpretations, the difference is how they interpret ਇਸੁ . This is a very interesting shabad that tells us how everything we do is in haume. We need to understand haume and eliminate it through the true Shabad. Haume Shabad Jalaaye.

Kulbir Singh



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/11/2008 05:24PM by admin.

 



Re: ਹਉਮੈ ਦੀਰਘ ਰੋਗੁ ਹੈ ਦਾਰੂ ਭੀ ਇਸੁ ਮਾਹਿ
Posted by: Khalsaspirit (IP Logged)
Date: September 10, 2008 01:49PM

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Bhai Kulbir Singh jio,

Quote "Haume Shabad Jalaaye."

"Haume de shabad nu jala dio" vaali viaykhia vee kar hee dinday.

Guru Mehar Karay

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

 



Re: ਹਉਮੈ ਦੀਰਘ ਰੋਗੁ ਹੈ ਦਾਰੂ ਭੀ ਇਸੁ ਮਾਹਿ
Posted by: kulbir singh (IP Logged)
Date: September 11, 2008 08:05AM

Veer Khalsaspirit jee has written:

Quote:
Quote "Haume Shabad Jalaaye."
"Haume de shabad nu jala dio" vaali viaykhia vee kar hee dinday.

ਹੁਕਮ ਸਿਰ ਮੱਥੇ .

The story goes as follows. The Radhasoami guru - Sawan Singh was a resident of the village Mahimasingh wala which is very close to Bhai Sahib's village Narangwal. For this reason both knew each other quite well. Once Bhai Sahib heard Sawan Singh doing katha of the half-pankiti ...ਹਉਮੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਜਲਾਏ ॥2॥ as follows:

ਹੇ ਭਾਈ, ਹਉਮੈ ਰੂਪੀ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਨੂੰ ਜਲਾ ਦੇਵੋ। (O Bhai, burn the Haume roopi Shabad)

Bhai Sahib who happened to be there when Sawan Singh said the above, could not restrain himself after hearing such gross violation of Gurbani understanding and viyakaran. Bhai Sahib got up and asked, ਹਉਮੈ ਜਾਂ ਹਉਮੈ ਰੂਪੀ ਵੀ ਕੋਈ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਹੈ (Is there such a shabad called Haume?).

Hearing Bhai Sahib interrupt him, he got very agitated and in anger said to Bhai Sahib, "ਤੁਸੀਂ ਹੀ ਇਥੇ ਆ ਕੇ ਕਥਾ ਕਰ ਲਵੋ।" (why don't you come here and do katha).

Bhai Sahib replied back telling him not to get upset but to look to see if the word ਸਬਦਿ has a sihaari in the end. Responding to this Sawan Singh said, "ਲਗੀ ਤਾਂ ਹੋਈ ਹੈ, ਫਿਰ ਕੀ ਹੋਇਆ।" (Yes it does have a sihaari in the end. So what happened?)

Bhai Sahib said, "ਹੋਇਆਂ ਨਹੀਂ। ਅਰਥ ਸਪਸ਼ਟ ਹੋ ਗਿਆ।" (Nothing happened but meanings have become clear)

He asked, "ਉਹ ਕੀ?" (And what are the meanings?)

Bhai Sahib replied, "ਸ਼ਬਦ (ਗੁਰਸ਼ਬਦ) ਦੁਆਰਾ ਹਉਮੈ ਨੂੰ ਜਲਾ ਦੇਵੋ। " (Through the Shabad, burn the Haume)

Bhai Sahib gave more Gurbani Pankitis to support these meanings and the whole sangat sitting there agreed with Bhai Sahib. Sawan Singh felt very embarrassed (ਬਹੁਤ ਪਸ਼ੇਮਾਨ ਹੋਇਆ).

The above is quite funny, if you read it in Punjabi.

Kulbir Singh

 



Re: ਹਉਮੈ ਦੀਰਘ ਰੋਗੁ ਹੈ ਦਾਰੂ ਭੀ ਇਸੁ ਮਾਹਿ
Posted by: Khalsaspirit (IP Logged)
Date: September 11, 2008 08:29AM

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Bhai Sahib jio,

Thanks a lot for fulfilling our benti.

Guru Mehar Karay

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

 



Re: ਹਉਮੈ ਦੀਰਘ ਰੋਗੁ ਹੈ ਦਾਰੂ ਭੀ ਇਸੁ ਮਾਹਿ
Posted by: Outwardly (IP Logged)
Date: September 11, 2008 05:09PM

Thanks for sharing!

Keep up the Gurbani-related posts everyone!!!

Vaheguru Jee Ka Khalsa,
Vaheguru Jee Kee Fateh!

 



Re: ਹਉਮੈ ਦੀਰਘ ਰੋਗੁ ਹੈ ਦਾਰੂ ਭੀ ਇਸੁ ਮਾਹਿ
Posted by: blacklion (IP Logged)
Date: September 29, 2008 03:17PM

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Bhai Sahib Kulbir Singh Ji,

Many thanks for sharing this all. This somehow brings to mind another question.. Is Maya only a projection/an appearance of Haumai or vice versa? I have heard it being said that these two are inseparably linked. Do Maya/Haumai exist seperately? Which of these two comes first, if one does? It somehow would make sense that Maya is never created in the first place, but only appears in relation to Haumai. This is a real puzzler, and perhaps not even a question of relevance, but again an answer to a question like this can sometimes shed some unexpected light on things. Also my understanding of Gurbani is not enough to solve this question by myself. Please forgive, if I am completely mislead.

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh

 



Re: ਹਉਮੈ ਦੀਰਘ ਰੋਗੁ ਹੈ ਦਾਰੂ ਭੀ ਇਸੁ ਮਾਹਿ
Posted by: kulbir singh (IP Logged)
Date: September 30, 2008 07:56AM

Beautiful question Blacklion jeeo. Is Maya appearing because of Haume or is it haume that is the product of Maya? Is Maya real or an illusion? By Maya, it means the Drishtmaan Sansaar (visible world). What's the Gurmat perspective on this.

This is a tough question and many thinkers have been struggling to get a straight answer on this one. Advaitins say on thing and Dvaitains say the other. Arya Samajis say something else and the Semetic religions have a different take on the status of visible world. What's the Gurmat view on this?

Advaitins led by Shankracharya and Gaudapada say that the world is totally an illusion and they give the example of a rope that appears to be a snake in dark. Just as the rope is not a snake but appears to be so, same way the world appears to be true but is not. They say that the world does not exist at all. The dualists led by Madhvacharya refute this saying that world (prakriti) is real but is totally under the control of Ishvar. Arya Samajis also believe that the world i.e. the Prakriti is real and Abinashi just as Vaheguru and Jeev are.

One of the oldest rivalry is of Advaitins led by Shankracharya and Dvaitins led by Madhvacharya. They have discussed and debated the issue of world being an illusion for centuries. The debate becames to deep and profound that an ordinary person cannot understand and fathom the notions debated. This debate has been commented upon in detail by Surendranath Dasgupta in his monumental 5 volume book on Indian philosophy.

I have been thinking about the Gurmat viewpoint on this and have not been able to fully comprehend it. Here are some points that I have been contemplating with respect to this:

1) There are pankitis in Gurbani that state that the drishtmaan sansaar i.e. the world that we see is real. The first salok of second pauri of Siri Asa kee Vaar states as follows:

ਸਚੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਖੰਡ ਸਚੇ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡ ॥
True are Your worlds, True are Your solar Systems.

ਸਚੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਲੋਅ ਸਚੇ ਆਕਾਰ ॥
True are Your realms, True is Your creation.

In Siri Sukhmani Sahib Siri guru jee has stated as follows:

ਆਪਿ ਸਤਿ ਕੀਆ ਸਭੁ ਸਤਿ ॥
He Himself is True, and all that He has made is True.

ਤਿਸੁ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਤੇ ਸਗਲੀ ਉਤਪਤਿ ॥
The entire creation came from God.

From the above pankitis it seems to be clear that the world is not an illusion but the real world created by Vaheguru himself. Since Vaheguru is the embodiment of truth, only truth can some from him.

2) The question arises when we see pankitis that clearly tell us that the world is false and dream like. Below are some pankitis that prove this:

ਜਗ ਰਚਨਾ ਸਭ ਝੂਠ ਹੈ ਜਾਨਿ ਲੇਹੁ ਰੇ ਮੀਤ ॥
The world and its affairs are totally false; know this well, my friend.

ਕਹਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਥਿਰੁ ਨਾ ਰਹੈ ਜਿਉ ਬਾਲੂ ਕੀ ਭੀਤਿ ॥49॥
Says Nanak, it is like a wall of sand; it shall not endure. ||49||

There are numerous pankitis that tell us that the world is like a dream and that it's not true.

3) How do you reconcile point 1 stated above with point 2 stated above as well? On one hand we clearly see that Gurbani says that the world is real and created by Vaheguru but then in 2nd point we see that the world is unreal and dreamlike.

4) I believe that in the first point Siri Guru jee is stating that the world is real in the sense that all that we are doing in this world is not unreal. The experience that we are having here is real, the sins we are committing here are going to be accounted for and the good deeds will be rewarded. All this system is real and Vaheguru is actively involved in his creation. He created the world and then not a leaf can move without his will. He is not a sleeping partner. This world is his creation and he is involved in it. In this respect it is real and not an illusion that Advaitins say it is.

5) The world is unreal in the sense that the jeev (creature) cannot possess anything here. So if you can't own anything and nothing belongs to you, then this world for you is as good as not existing. Nothing that this maya or this world has can be owned by the jeev. There is no taste, rass, pleasure, pain in matter but the jeev under the false impression of haume feels taste, pain, pleasure etc. The Jeev belongs to the spirit world i.e. the spiritual world of Vaheguru. This world is there but it is not for the jeev. The jeev has to pull himself out of this world and place his surthee in something more lateef i.e. in Vaheguru's jyot. The jeev is not made of any of the 5 elements of this world but is made of jyot of Vaheguru and for this reason it cannot own anything here. Just like water and fire cannot mix, same way jeev which is jyot saroop cannot mix with or possess matter that is this world. For this reason this world is not real for the jeev. The jeev does not belong here. The jeev must free himself by the grace of Vaheguru and go where it belongs i.e. to the spiritual realms.

6) Blacklion jeeo, you stated in your post that can it be that the maya was never created? The answer lies in the second pankiti of first pauri of Siri Asa kee Vaar. ਦੁਯੀ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਸਾਜੀਐ ਕਰਿ ਆਸਣੁ ਡਿਠੋ ਚਾਉ ॥ First he established himself and established his Naam i.e. his power and as second step, he established the Maya or Prakriti or Kudrat and he placed himself in this Kudrat to view and control it.

There are many concepts about which I am not very clear and am still trying to get more understanding. This understanding will come only from Naam Abhyaas and Har-Gun Gaam (singing Har Gun i.e. Gurbani). What I have written above is just my meagre understanding of what this world is, as per Gurbani.

Kulbir Singh

 



Re: ਹਉਮੈ ਦੀਰਘ ਰੋਗੁ ਹੈ ਦਾਰੂ ਭੀ ਇਸੁ ਮਾਹਿ
Posted by: blacklion (IP Logged)
Date: September 30, 2008 04:20PM

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Bhai Sahib Jeo,

Many thanks for the comprehensive reply. I very much agree with what you have said in points 4 and 5. The notion I have been getting through Gurbani is very much along those lines and your words clear up the thoughts very well. Guru Ji says that this world is real, we are not dreaming, and that it matters what we do here. However this world is not to get attached to as attaching to it gives birth to the five thieves/haumai, which in turn lead to our destruction (it appears now this way). We have not produced this world ourselves and can not contain the Truth of it's reality. Also, the world is not made for the individual jeev entirely, but we have to live and share with other jeevs. We can not know or decide the destinies of other jeevs, so if we do not consider this it adds to our problem. So we have desires and illusions of this world, which lead us astray. Guru Ji is telling us that these secondary things are not real, whether fundamentally or in course of time. Your speech of jeev belonging to the spirit world and being made of jyot of Vaheguru Ji goes into lovely degrees. Wish I would have more understanding of that.

My thought of maya not being created is admittedly based on manmukh thinking. I was thinking over it the other day and thought that why would Vaheguru Ji create something "not good". Rather such should be born out of ourselves or our imagined individual existance. This however is perhaps not the true picture of reality. Vaheguru Ji knows best what are the reasons and the ends. I will try to contemplate on that Pankiti in Sri Asa Kee Vaar. And to go back to my thought, some will say that good and bad does not exist either. So it is all perhaps just my false desire regarding the nature of this world.

Couple of more points of interest regarding this subject.. You seem to say that Maya is equal to Kudrat/Prakriti. Is this established in Gurbani or is it common knowledge somehow else? Also, does maya exist on immaterial stages?

Many thanks and sincere apologies for anything wrong I may have said. Nanak Naam Chardhi Kala Tere Bhane Sarbat Da Bhalla

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh

 



Re: ਹਉਮੈ ਦੀਰਘ ਰੋਗੁ ਹੈ ਦਾਰੂ ਭੀ ਇਸੁ ਮਾਹਿ
Posted by: blacklion (IP Logged)
Date: October 01, 2008 04:30AM

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Could someone kindly translate the following pankiti from Sri Japji Sahib:

rMgI rMgI BwqI kir kir ijnsI mwieAw ijin aupweI ]




With thanks

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh

 



Re: ਹਉਮੈ ਦੀਰਘ ਰੋਗੁ ਹੈ ਦਾਰੂ ਭੀ ਇਸੁ ਮਾਹਿ
Posted by: kulbir singh (IP Logged)
Date: October 06, 2008 09:12AM

Quote:
Could someone kindly translate the following pankiti from Sri Japji Sahib:
ਰੰਗੀ ਰੰਗੀ ਭਾਤੀ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਜਿਨਸੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਜਿਨਿ ਉਪਾਈ ॥

In my humble opinion, this pankiti can be translated as, "Vaheguru has created this maya (prakriti, kudrat) Rangi Rangi i.e. of various colours or kinds and of various varieties (Jinsee)".

In the next pankiti Siri Guru jee makes it clear that Vaheguru's Vadiyayee is known in this way that he after creating this world, looks at it i.e. carefully watches all that goes on (i.e. is not aloof from it and takes care of it).

Baani is Agam Agadh Bodh.

Kulbir Singh

 





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