ਚੁਕਾਰਅਜ਼ਹਮਹਹੀਲਤੇਦਰਗੁਜ਼ਸ਼ਤ॥ਹਲਾਲਅਸਤਬੁਰਦਨਬਸ਼ਮਸ਼ੀਰਦਸਤ॥੨੨॥ (ਸ੍ਰੀ ਮੁਖਵਾਕ ਪਾਤਿਸ਼ਾਹੀ ੧੦॥)

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anad or anand?
Posted by: Atma Singh (IP Logged)
Date: August 14, 2008 07:12AM

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ

khalsa jeeo,

a singh jee told me that talwara jee states in one of his books (probably a steek) that one should pronounce the literal word 'anad' in the last pauRee of anand sahib as 'anaad' and not insert a tippee and pronounuce as 'anand', as i and perhaps most others on this forum do.

i have looked for it via a very useful sanskrit/transliteration/translation dictionary:

[spokensanskrit.de]

i can't find such a word.

does anyone have any theories re: what 'anad' would mean. please bear in mind that there is no kanna beforee the dadda so we can't pronounce this word as 'anaad' (meaning 'without beginning/sans beginning') as featured in jap sahib (aad , aneel , anaad , anahat ; jug jug , eko ves).

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ

ਦਾਸ,
ਆਤਮਾ ਸਿੰਘ

 



Re: anad or anand?
Posted by: Khalsaspirit (IP Logged)
Date: August 14, 2008 09:33AM

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Bhai Sahib jio,

We are also looking for Talwara Ji’s explanation but in the mean time our take is that ਅਨਦੁ should be pronounced without tippi on nanna.

ਅਨਦੁ ਸੁਣਹੁ ਵਡਭਾਗੀਹੋ ਸਗਲ ਮਨੋਰਥ ਪੂਰੇ ॥
To back up our understanding or claim if we see next word ਸੁਣਹੁ which indicates listening or to listen. Now if word ਅਨਦੁ is related to listening then meaning of this word would be related to sound. Now what sound? either sound of Gur Shabad internally or What is being sung externally that is different subject but it is clear that this is related to listening. Having said that ਅਨਦੁ with tippi can not relate to listening because ANAND can not be listened it can only be felt (ਮਹਿਸੂਸ ਕੀਤਾ ਜਾਂ ਮਾਣਿਆ ਜਾ ਸਕਦਾ ਹੈ) as in beginning it is mentioned very clearly
ਅਨੰਦੁ ਭਇਆ ਮੇਰੀ ਮਾਏ
Hence, pronunciation should be as written. This is our tush understanding we could be wrong in explaining.

Guru Mehar Karay

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

 



Re: anad or anand?
Posted by: kulbir singh (IP Logged)
Date: August 14, 2008 01:53PM

Veer Khalsaspirrit jeeo,

I think the pronunciation of this word should be Anand with a tippee. This pankiti is talking about the mahatam of reading and listening to Siri Anand Sahib. 'Anand Sunho' means listen to Anand Sahib (Gurbani). Later in this pauri, it clearly says that 'Dookh rog Santap utre, Sunee Sachee Baani'. Sachee baani again is referred to this Baani. Talwara jee too has interpreted this in similar way as stated above.

Rest Gurbani is Agam Agaadh Bodh. Guru Sahib diyaan Guru Sahib hee jaanan.

Daas,
Kulbir Singh

 



Re: anad or anand?
Posted by: bgtsingh (IP Logged)
Date: August 14, 2008 04:24PM

i'm glad you'd brought this up atma singh. it was something some singhs were discussing here too.

I had been under the impression though that gurujee saying 'anad sunno' was saying listen to the anhad. and that the usual 'paer vich haha' (or even full haha) was omitted as it was silent in pronunciation.

and that this unstruck melody was true bani being recited (from sachkhand?). and then in the last tuk, when gurujee says "vaaje anhad dhoore" it seemed like a reiteration.

these were just my thoughts. if this is incorrect, please explain.

 



Re: anad or anand?
Posted by: Atma Singh (IP Logged)
Date: August 15, 2008 02:18AM

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ


veer kulbir singh jee,

"Talwara jee too has interpreted this in similar way as stated above".

i was told that talwara jee DOESN'T believe that tippee should be pronounced. is this incorrect?

veer bgt singh jee,

your thoughts make a lot of sense. will try and do some more research and see what comes-up.

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ

ਦਾਸ,
ਆਤਮਾ ਸਿੰਘ

 



Re: anad or anand?
Posted by: khalistan_zindabaad (IP Logged)
Date: August 15, 2008 04:17AM

If the tipee is not there then why pronounce it, taksal specifically states that here the pronounciation in anad, NOT ANAND. but as you have free will, pleas continue to follow man ki mat and do as you please.

 



Re: anad or anand?
Posted by: kulbir singh (IP Logged)
Date: August 15, 2008 07:00AM

Quote:
If the tipee is not there then why pronounce it, taksal specifically states that here the pronounciation in anad, NOT ANAND. but as you have free will, pleas continue to follow man ki mat and do as you please.

You ask why should we pronounce tippee if it's not there. Please tell us why did Sant Gurbachan Singh jee instruct us to pronounce tippee on ਢਢੋਲਿ in the 3rd Salok of Siri Sukhmani Sahib?

ਸਲੋਕੁ ॥ ਬਹੁ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਬਹੁ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤੀ ਪੇਖੇ ਸਰਬ ਢਢੋਲਿ ॥
ਪੂਜਸਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਹਰਿ ਹਰੇ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮ ਅਮੋਲ ॥1॥

Sant jee in book Gurbani Paath Darshan clearly has instructed to place a tippee in ਢਢੋਲਿ above. Same way the word ਅਨਦੁ appearing in the last pauri of Siri Anand Sahib should be pronouced with a tippee. Otherwise there is no meaning that can be derived from it. The word ਅਨਦੁ without tippee is meaningless. This word appears many times in Siri Sukhmani Sahib too:

ਬਲੂਆ ਕੇ ਗ੍ਰਿਹ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਬਸੈ ॥
ਅਨਦ ਕੇਲ ਮਾਇਆ ਰੰਗਿ ਰਸੈ ॥

It's clear that in the above pankiti this word means 'anand'. Please refer to any translation. This word never means 'Anhad' in Gurbani.

Take a look at another example from Siri Sukhmani Sahib:

ਅਗਨਤ ਸਾਹੁ ਅਪਨੀ ਦੇ ਰਾਸਿ ॥
ਖਾਤ ਪੀਤ ਬਰਤੈ ਅਨਦ ਉਲਾਸਿ ॥

Here too this word means Anand and should be pronounced as such.

Here are some more examples where this word in Gurbani means Anand:

ਅਨਦ ਰੂਪ ਮੰਗਲ ਸਦ ਜਾ ਕੈ ॥ ਸਰਬ ਥੋਕ ਸੁਨੀਅਹਿ ਘਰਿ ਤਾ ਕੈ ॥


ਤਪਤਿ ਮਾਹਿ ਠਾਢਿ ਵਰਤਾਈ ॥ ਅਨਦੁ ਭਇਆ ਦੁਖ ਨਾਠੇ ਭਾਈ ॥


ਆਪਹਿ ਕਉਤਕ ਕਰੈ ਅਨਦ ਚੋਜ ॥ ਆਪਹਿ ਰਸ ਭੋਗਨ ਨਿਰਜੋਗ ॥


ਸੁਨਿ ਸੁਨਿ ਅਨਦ ਕਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਗਾਜੈ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਗਟੇ ਗੁਪਾਲ ਮਹਾਂਤ ਕੈ ਮਾਥੇ ॥


ਜਿਸੁ ਸਿਮਰਤ ਸੰਕਟ ਛੁਟਹਿ ਅਨਦ ਮੰਗਲ ਬਿਸ੍ਰਾਮ ॥
ਨਾਨਕ ਜਪੀਐ ਸਦਾ ਹਰਿ ਨਿਮਖ ਨ ਬਿਸਰਉ ਨਾਮੁ ॥2॥


ਖੇਲੁ ਦੇਖਿ ਮਨਿ ਅਨਦੁ ਭਇਆ ਸਹੁ ਵੀਆਹਣ ਆਇਆ ॥1॥


This daas has never found this word ਅਨਦੁ in the meanings of anhad or anhat. In the light of this, it is safe to assume this word when appearing in Siri Anand Sahib's last pauri, means Anand (Sahib) and should be pronounced as such.

Regarding Talwara jee's take on this, I did not say in my previous post whether he asked to place tippee or not but the meanings that he has derived are what this daas wrote in the first post i.e. ਅਨਦੁ means Siri Anand Sahib Gurbani and the instruction is to listen to this baani.

Daas,
Kulbir Singh

 



Re: anad or anand?
Posted by: bgtsingh (IP Logged)
Date: August 15, 2008 07:18AM

i looked up a few other instances where anad (with aunkar) appears. it seems yes, those tuks do seem to be referring to anand.

thanks singh.

 



Re: anad or anand?
Posted by: Khalsaspirit (IP Logged)
Date: August 15, 2008 08:20AM

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Bhai Kulbir Singh Jio,

We looked into Nitnem Steek done by Talwara jee (unless he mentioned some where else in other books), you are true he did not mention what to place and not to place but in Arths Bhai Sahib mentioned similar what you have mentioned and leave no doubt about meaning. Above a Singh mentioned about ANHAD which we think is not right because the topic of this bani itself is ANAND not ANHAD. Next there is mentioning of taksali claim which we think does not hold any principle either.

Now we think question for ਅਨਦੁ ucharan can be resolved from this Gurbani itself. The examples you gave indicates the ucharan towards ANAND and we think this is the great beauty of Gurbani that question and answers both lies in it. If we take a look at heading First ਅਨੰਦੁ which of course name of BANI and its utterance related to sound, Second ਅਨੰਦੁ (which is first word of this BANI) is related to feeling. Same word related to two different causes. Now if in ਅਨਦੁ ਸੁਣਹੁ ਵਡਭਾਗੀਹੋ ਸਗਲ ਮਨੋਰਥ ਪੂਰੇ ॥ if ਅਨਦੁ is related to First word (seems which is most likely the case because of ਸੁਣਹੁ next to it) then you are 100% right that it should pronounce with tippi but if we relate to second word then meaning would be different and word ਸੁਣਹੁ is restricting it to do so. Either way both beggining words has tippi so can be easily concluded that ਅਨਦੁ can be pronounced with tippi. Then a big question comes up why ਅਨਦੁ is written without tippi. There could be two reason we can think of either it is printing error which is repeatedly continued or if Guru Sahib himself dictated to Bhai Sahib Gurdass ji and Second time to Bhai Sahib Bhai Mani Singh Ji then Guru Sahib may be wanted us to pay attention when reading Gurbani same as many and many other places in Gurbani. Which one is the case for sure is hard to conclude. So we think individual sharda or knowledge is the key to pronounce but reading above posts we are inclined towards ANAND now. Rest as you mentioned Bhai sahib Jio, Bani is agaadh bodh and isda ant(h) nahi paiya ja sakda.

Guru Mehar Karay

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

 



Re: anad or anand?
Posted by: khalistan_zindabaad (IP Logged)
Date: August 15, 2008 01:06PM

In the katha of sri anand sahib jee in the following link, sant gurbachan singh jee and the paati singh jee both pronounce anad. check the link

[www.gurmatveechar.org]

@ 17 mins. sant jee also mention radhaswomis in this pangti.

 



Re: anad or anand?
Posted by: kulbir singh (IP Logged)
Date: August 15, 2008 01:33PM

Khalistan-Zindabad jeeo,

You had mentioned in your first post that when tippee is not there, then why should one pronounce it and you also mentioned Taksali maryada in your first post. In response to that I wrote that Taksal Jathedar Sant Gurbachan Singh jee himself has instructed to place bindi and tippe where required. Could you explain why we are allowed to place tippe in one instance and not in other? If we are interpreting this word as Anand and if Bhai Mani Singh Taksal jathedar Sant Kirpal Singh too is interpreting this as Anand, then why can't we place a tippee here. Please take example of the word Dhandhol where Sant jee himself asks us to place a tippee.

Kulbir Singh

 



Re: anad or anand?
Posted by: khalistan_zindabaad (IP Logged)
Date: August 16, 2008 02:50PM

For more information ask a student of the jatha, or contact www.damdamitaksaal.org im sure they would be more than pleased to help gurmukhs such as yourself.

 



Re: anad or anand?
Posted by: Matheen (IP Logged)
Date: August 16, 2008 04:50PM

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa!
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

Doesn't the same word come at the end of the "Aukhi Ghari Na Dekhan Daye" shabad?

Khalistan-Zindabad Ji, at Taksal the first stage of Santhiya is to learn Gurbani exactly as it is written, so we can check printing and also gives us the ability to dictate/ write Gurbani exactly as Guru Ji revealed it, if need be (e.g. in times of war/hardship/natural disasters where we may find ourselves without Gutkey Sahibs or Pothis etc.

In the next stage, we are taught how to do Uchaaran in Sangat, where some words are pronounced differently etc.

Our interpretation of Gurbani depends on our Avastha. If we have not had complete Santhiya or are unsure, it is best to read Gurbani as it is written.

Guru Ka Kookar.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa!
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

 



Re: anad or anand?
Posted by: Matheen (IP Logged)
Date: August 16, 2008 04:57PM

Sorry, made a mistake in my previous post - the spellings are different in that Shabad and in Anand Sahib.

However, the exact same spelling appears many times in different Shabads written by different Sareers of Guru Sahib.

 



Re: anad or anand?
Posted by: Navjot Kaur (IP Logged)
Date: August 18, 2008 08:09AM

Well, its my first post here and I just don't want to sound rude but I think (with my tuchh buddhi) that Guru Saheb had enough ink to write a 'tippee'. If we insist on the example of Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji Bhindranwale that we are supposed to include a tippee on ਢਢੋਲਿ then we should also pay attention to their's saying "anad" and not "anand".

 



Re: anad or anand?
Posted by: NiranjanSingh (IP Logged)
Date: August 18, 2008 09:28AM

>>>If we insist on the example of Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji Bhindranwale that we are supposed to include a tippee on ਢਢੋਲਿ then we should also pay attention to their's saying "anad" and not "anand".

Bibi Ji,

I think Bhai Kulbir Singh Ji's point was that how can we say that the Taksal does not pronounce tippis in certain words when ਢਢੋਲਿ is clearly pronounced by Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji. Whereas khalistan_zindabaad was suggesting the opposite.

We also know Baba Ji used to pronounce ਗੋਬਿਦ as 'Gobind' with a tippee, even though there are many many instances where the tippee is not printed in Gurbani.

Baba Ji was a very learned Gurmukh, but there were others very learned Gurmukhs who pronounced things differently. For you to suggest that we should blinldy go by what Baba ji did is unreasonable. Again the point here is that bindis and tippees are used when pronouncing certain shabads depending on the context of the actual word.

No one is suggesting that they were not put there due to the lack of ink.

 



Re: anad or anand?
Posted by: khalistan_zindabaad (IP Logged)
Date: August 18, 2008 10:32AM

When poetry is concerned, due to certain rules of counting etc, only certain amount of lagaamantras are allowed, hence sometimes a bindi tipee not being included is due to this. When one recieves santhia the ustaad teaches them where this is the case and where to pronounce/ not pronounce some tipee, bindee etc. i have been tought not to pronounce tipee on anad.

 



Re: anad or anand?
Posted by: Khalsaspirit (IP Logged)
Date: August 18, 2008 11:14AM

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Khalsa jio,

We thought this is also appropriate here to bring some examples from Sri Anand Sahib especially from first few pauris where many Matras or words which we noticed that usually missed by many while reading:

In tuk ਅੰਗੀਕਾਰੁ ਓਹੁ ਕਰੇ ਤੇਰਾ ਕਾਰਜ ਸਭਿ ਸਵਾਰਣਾ ॥ Many read ਅੰਗੀਕਾਰੁ ਓਹੁ together as ਅੰਗੀਕਾਰੋ leaving a complete word ਓਹੁ. One should give a short pause after ਅੰਗੀਕਾਰੁ.
In tuk ਸਾਚੇ ਸਾਹਿਬਾ ਕਿਆ ਨਾਹੀ ਘਰਿ ਤੇਰੈ ॥ Many read ਨਾਹੀ as ਨਹੀ leaving kanna form of ink and ਤੇਰੈ as ਤੇਰੇ leaving one laanv
In tuk ਘਰਿ ਤ ਤੇਰੈ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਹੈ ਜਿਸੁ ਦੇਹਿ ਸੁ ਪਾਵਏ ॥ Many read ਪਾਵਏ as ਪਾਵੇ leaving eree form of ink also ਤੇਰੈ as ਤੇਰੇ leaving one laanv
In tuk ਸਦਾ ਸਿਫਤਿ ਸਲਾਹ ਤੇਰੀ ਨਾਮੁ ਮਨਿ ਵਸਾਵਏ ॥ Many read ਵਸਾਵਏ as ਵਸਾਵੇ again leaving eree
In tuk ਨਾਮੁ ਜਿਨ ਕੈ ਮਨਿ ਵਸਿਆ ਵਾਜੇ ਸਬਦ ਘਨੇਰੇ ॥ Many read ਕੈ as ਕੇ
In tuk ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਸਚੇ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਕਿਆ ਨਾਹੀ ਘਰਿ ਤੇਰੈ ॥੩॥ Many read ਸਾਹਿਬ as ਸਹਿਬ leaving kanna and again ਨਾਹੀ as ਨਹੀ
In tuk ਸਾਚਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਆਧਾਰੋ ॥ ਆਧਾਰੋ as ਅਧਾਰੋ leaving kanna

In tuk ਸਦਾ ਕੁਰਬਾਣੁ ਕੀਤਾ ਗੁਰੂ ਵਿਟਹੁ ਜਿਸ ਦੀਆ ਏਹਿ ਵਡਿਆਈਆ ॥ ਗੁਰੂ as ਗੁਰ leaving Dulankads under rara
In tuk ਵਾਜੇ ਪੰਚ ਸਬਦ ਤਿਤੁ ਘਰਿ ਸਭਾਗੈ ॥ ਸਭਾਗੈ as ਸਭਾਗੇ leaving one laanv
In tuk ਧੁਰਿ ਕਰਮਿ ਪਾਇਆ ਤੁਧੁ ਜਿਨ ਕਉ ਸਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਹਰਿ ਕੈ ਲਾਗੇ ॥ ਕੈ as ਕੇ

As in above examples clearly we see how ignorantly we read Gurbani. So in future we should also pay attention when we read anad, not as anad anymore but read as ANAND.

Guru Mehar Karay

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

 



Re: anad or anand?
Posted by: Atma Singh (IP Logged)
Date: August 19, 2008 04:16AM

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ

khala jeeo,

re:

ਸਦਾ ਕੁਰਬਾਣੁ ਕੀਤਾ ਗੁਰੂ ਵਿਟਹੁ ਜਿਸ ਦੀਆ ਏਹਿ ਵਡਿਆਈਆ

- ਦੀਆ - should the kanna be nasalised in the same way we nasalise the kanna on ਵਡਿਆਈਆ ?

dhanvaad.

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ

ਦਾਸ,
ਆਤਮਾ ਸਿੰਘ

 



Re: anad or anand?
Posted by: kulbir singh (IP Logged)
Date: August 19, 2008 06:50AM

Quote:
- ਦੀਆ - should the kanna be nasalised in the same way we nasalise the kanna on ਵਡਿਆਈਆ ?

Correct.

Kulbir Singh

 
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