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In the Bani What does Ghar Mean when refered next to Raag
Posted by: Akali_Fauja_Singh (IP Logged)
Date: August 05, 2008 07:44AM

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.

Khalsa Jio, I was reading sikhiwiki and Ghar has been related to
The taal system of the tabla.
But to be honest this does not make any sense?
Any one who has any knowledge of pakawaj will know, that the pauri systen has 1 tali as well as the other taals like kerva and dadra?
So how can we determine that Ghar pelah is reffered to Dadra 6 beats taal? like stated in the Sikhi Wiki site.
I understand that the Mahan Kosh only states that it has something to do with the taal systemm but ti has not been claerified.
Also in shastrya sangeet, there is no limit to the taal system.
For example I can create a taal with 3 talis in it and 2 khali's and I can make it 19 or 20 beats cycle, so does that mean it's not a taal, Taal can mean anything so long as the cycle is consistant.

So therefore I personally don't agree with the explaintion for Ghar that is related to the taal system.
Please can one of my Gursikh Brother add to this khoj.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.

 



Re: In the Bani What does Ghar Mean when refered next to Raag
Posted by: Harcharan Singh (IP Logged)
Date: August 06, 2008 05:32AM

Akali_Fauja_Singh

As you most probably already know (given your level of knowledge), 'some' sikh academics have translated ghar as taal due the Persian use of the word.

You mention Gur Shabad Ratnakar Mahan Kosh,Kahn Singh also describes ghar as meaning sur - he does not give a definative answer (not that it would be even if he did).

Your arguements are relevant, to add - Guru Ramdas who introduced the concept of Partaal to the world (duel rythm), has clearly refered to taal as taal. So why would Guru Sahiban then need to use a different word alongside - this is technical instruction/maryada in Gurbani not poetic artistry?

To add, partaal and ghar have mentioned in the same title in Gurbani - hence negating the taal theory. How can Guru Ji give a specific taal instruction and then give agyaa for partaal?

Ghar means house - hence in Hindustani sangeet we have Gharanai - traditional schools where Sangeet is taught. In Natya shastra and other puratan raag/sangeet vidya granths, we see the use of the word greh, which in Sahanskriti translates to ghar. The word is used to refer to the shrutis in the Indian scales which number 22.

There has been a detailed and highly researched study done into the use of the word ghar in Gurbani which will hopefully be released in the near future.

 



Re: In the Bani What does Ghar Mean when refered next to Raag
Posted by: Akali_Fauja_Singh (IP Logged)
Date: August 07, 2008 03:35AM

Harcharan Singh Ji

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.

I'm so glad that some enlightenment has been shed on this topic.
Yes you are correct, when Satguru Ramdas ji maharaj introduced the partaal, how can there then be a bandan, that is a very good point.

I will be looking forward to this research on Ghar.

Akali Fauja Singh

 



Re: In the Bani What does Ghar Mean when refered next to Raag
Posted by: kulbir singh (IP Logged)
Date: August 07, 2008 08:12AM

Veer Harcharan Singh jeeo,

I am looking forward to the release of the study on this topic.

I am not convinced that ghar means taal but what it really means, I don't know. I am not even sure if it relates to Sangeet. It is part of the Sirlekh (heading) and most sirlekhs contains Mahalla, Raag and Ghar. Mahalla tells you about the author of the Shabad and Raag tells you in which Raag this shabad was sung originally. Ghar could be meant to give us some other information.

In any case, please let us know when that study you have mentioned, becomes available.

Kulbir Singh

 



Re: In the Bani What does Ghar Mean when refered next to Raag
Posted by: Harcharan Singh (IP Logged)
Date: August 07, 2008 01:01PM

Veer Kulbir Singh Ji, all the information in the title relates to how the Shabd is to be sung as per the identified Guru's hukum. Other information that appears in the title includes dhuni (9 folk tunes), partaal, dhaknee, styles of singing i.e. ashtpadian, vaar, chhand, ghorian, alahunian (all folk styles). Outside of this we have ank and rahao that serve as kirtan maryada for how to sing the shabd in strict order and what to use as refrain/sthhai.

It is not even a debate amongst any respected scholars as to the clearcut kirtan instructions in gurbani - including for ghar. The only debate is whether ghar relates to taal or shruti - with the evidence lying heavily on shruti for the aforementioned reasons. Where ghar is used, the vadi sur is replaced with ghar shruti to fine tune or adjust that raag as per Sat-Guru's kushi and hukum.

I will be happy to update sangat when the information becomes available in the public domain.

Dhanvaad.

 



Re: In the Bani What does Ghar Mean when refered next to Raag
Posted by: Khalsaspirit (IP Logged)
Date: August 07, 2008 01:45PM

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Khalsa jio,

Complicated kirtan does not necessarily equate perfect to kirtan.

ਕੋਈ ਗਾਵੈ ਰਾਗੀ ਨਾਦੀ ਬੇਦੀ ਬਹੁ ਭਾਤਿ ਕਰਿ ਨਹੀ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਭੀਜੈ ਰਾਮ ਰਾਜੇ ॥ Panna 450

Some sing Lord God through music, musical instruments and religions books in various ways, but, by these methods, Master, the King is not pleased. In whom are fraud and sin what good can bewailing do unto them? God, the Creator, knows everything, though man tries to hide his sin or source of disease. The pious persons, whose mind is pure, O Nanak, obtain Lord God's love-worship.

(ਹੇ ਭਾਈ!) ਕੋਈ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਰਾਗ ਗਾ ਕੇ, ਕੋਈ ਸੰਖ ਆਦਿਕ ਸਾਜ ਵਜਾ ਕੇ, ਕੋਈ ਧਰਮ ਪੁਸਤਕਾਂ ਪੜ੍ਹ ਕੇ ਕਈ ਤਰੀਕਿਆਂ ਨਾਲ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੇ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ ਪਰ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਇਸ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ ਪ੍ਰਸੰਨ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੁੰਦਾ (ਕਿਉਂਕਿ) ਕਰਤਾਰ (ਹਰੇਕ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਦੇ ਦਿਲ ਦੀ) ਹਰੇਕ ਗੱਲ ਜਾਣਦਾ ਹੈ ਅੰਦਰਲੇ ਰੋਗਾਂ ਉਤੇ ਬੇਸ਼ੱਕ ਹੱਥ ਦਿੱਤਾ ਜਾਏ (ਅੰਦਰਲੇ ਵਿਕਾਰਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਲੁਕਾਣ ਦਾ ਜਤਨ ਕੀਤਾ ਜਾਏ, ਤਾਂ ਭੀ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਪਾਸੋਂ ਲੁਕੇ ਨਹੀਂ ਰਹਿ ਸਕਦੇ)। ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! ਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਸਰਨ ਪੈ ਕੇ ਜਿਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਮਨੁੱਖਾਂ ਦਾ ਹਿਰਦਾ ਪਵਿਤ੍ਰ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਉਹੀ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੀ ਭਗਤੀ ਕਰਦੇ ਹਨ, ਉਹੀ ਹਰੀ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਲੈਂਦੇ ਹਨ।੪।੧੧।੧੮।
Translations: Bhai Manmohan Singh Ji And Prof. Sahib Singh Ji

Guru Mehar Karay

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

 



Re: In the Bani What does Ghar Mean when refered next to Raag
Posted by: Harcharan Singh (IP Logged)
Date: August 08, 2008 03:20AM

Khalsa Spirit,

Your post is the sort of post that creates miseducation and a brainwashed youth - it is due to attitudes like yours that there isno longer any collective learning and change in the panth.

You live in bubble, our Guru's gave us the best of everything - and gave us aagya to use these arts for teh most exalted worship, recital, war, singing, egoless service etc.

Guru Sahib are talking about haumai not about ignoring their hukum.

The same way you cite this example, other examples can also be cited where those who have haumai in and feign meditation are not condoned, does this mean one should stop doing simran?

I know so many Singhs who have haumai due to their jathaa, their maryada, their baana, their specific gift and initiation of naam, their sarbloh rehit etc etc. These people are no better than the showmanship raagis Guru's is targeting.

Stop jumping from one extreme to another.

If you were mature, your advice would have been that we should all make effort to learn and follow Guru ji's hukum when it comes to kirtan - in doing so their is sharda. And when we are able to do Guru's hukmi kirtan, we should keep our mun attuned to Vaheguru in order to control our ahankaar.

This same advice goes for the kirtani that do not follow Guru's hukum, for kathakaar, for sevadaar covering all aspects of Sikhi.

 



Re: In the Bani What does Ghar Mean when refered next to Raag
Posted by: Akali_Fauja_Singh (IP Logged)
Date: August 08, 2008 04:33AM

Dear KhalsaSprit

Veer ji......
This is not a debate and please don't turn it into one.
No one here is disscussing Complicated Kirtan, or to the Matter how kirtan is to be done.

This is about what and why Ghar is used in the Sirleakh.
But thank you for all the bani you've quoted, any Darshan of Bani is the darshan of my Guru Sahib.

So lets concentrate on this single point to what does Ghar mean in the sirleakh.

Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji di mehar sadkah soun sarehya nou souji aaveh.

Akali Fauja Singh Nihang

 



Re: In the Bani What does Ghar Mean when refered next to Raag
Posted by: Khalsaspirit (IP Logged)
Date: August 08, 2008 08:55AM

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Harcharan Singh jio,

With due respect, please re-read your own wording which you posted with your kar kanwal copule days before: Quote "Simple kirtan does not necessarily equate perfect to kirtan." Now you contradicted to yourself Quote "Stop jumping from one extreme to another."

In our post aside from a word "complicated" rest of wording is yours, Guru Sahib, Bhai Manmohan Singh ji and Prof. Sahib Singh jee. In another words 99% we wrote are not ours which means your following Quote” Your post is the sort of post that creates miseducation and a brainwashed youth - it is due to attitudes like yours that there isno longer any collective learning and change in the panth. You live in bubble, our Guru's gave us the best of everything - and gave us aagya to use these arts for teh most exalted worship, recital, war, singing, egoless service etc." Waheguru! who it implies to?

Quote "If you were mature, your advice would have been that we should all make effort to learn and follow Guru ji's hukum when it comes to kirtan"

Our Answer is we are ਹਮ ਬਾਰਿਕ ਮੁਗਧ ਇਆਨ ਪਿਤਾ ਸਮਝਾਵਹਿਗੇ ॥ what we moorakh can give advice. May be you are a MATURE person who know how to teach and do kirtan other wise we moorakhs ਹਰਿ ਆਰਾਧਿ ਨ ਜਾਨਾ ਰੇ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਰੇ ॥ that is the hukam we try to follow. We could not believe that "COMPLICATED" word has such a enormous amount of impact.

Guru Piyare Akali_Fauja_Singh NIHANG jio,

We respect your enquiry but seems like you did not do justice by writing this:
Quote "No one here is disscussing Complicated Kirtan, or to the Matter how kirtan is to be done."

Seems like you solely blamed us but NIHANG jio please read this.

Quote "Other information that appears in the title includes dhuni (9 folk tunes), partaal, dhaknee, styles of singing i.e. ashtpadian, vaar, chhand, ghorian, alahunian (all folk styles). Outside of this we have ank and rahao that serve as kirtan maryada for how to sing the shabd in strict order and what to use as refrain/sthhai."

Now is this "No one here is disscussing Complicated Kirtan, or to the Matter how kirtan is to be done." true any more?

Guru Mehar Karay

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

 



Re: In the Bani What does Ghar Mean when refered next to Raag
Posted by: Akali_Fauja_Singh (IP Logged)
Date: August 08, 2008 09:41AM

KhalsaSprit Jio....

Bani Yaad karan naal Kami ney kiti jandi...

Look like you just want to argue, I have no time for this, this was a simple enquiry not a debate which your bringing in from another topic.

Harcharan Singh Ji replied with very interesting feed back, and he brought in the subject of kirtan.
Now I don't care how you do kirtan or wht you think is right.
I want to know my fellow Gursikh's view on how the Ghar in sirleah fits in.

So please don't post your post on this topic, start a new one off, and Argue with your Brothers.

Akali Fauja Singh Nihang

 



Re: In the Bani What does Ghar Mean when refered next to Raag
Posted by: Harcharan Singh (IP Logged)
Date: August 11, 2008 05:59AM

"i like listening to raag keertan. like any keertan, i only really enjoy it when it seems to me the keertanee is truly at maharaaj jee's feet when singing it. i have heard lots of keertan, raag and non-raag alike, where sadly this isn't the case.

at this point in time, with my very limited knowledge, i feel raag is important however, i'm not currently of the opinion that only keertan done in raag is acceptable to maharaaj jee. i am open to the fact that this is most likely due to my proximity and acceptance of keertan maryada as practised by puraatan jatha singhs.

however, what i find strange is that some raag-proponents go as far as to say that certain shabads should only be sung at certain times as per their raag and not at any other time. i just can't swallow this because gurbaaNee is timeless, all-powerful and all-encompassing...and therefore not constrained to time.

if there can be no parvaan keertan without raag, what if one wishes to sing jap jee sahib or shabads which do not have raag instructions? does this mean we cannot sing them? or does this mean we can use any raag? but if raag is always so crucial, why did mahraaj jee not state a raag for every single shabad? therefore, i still have doubts about raag being of absolutely critical importance when it comes to parvaan keertan.

who knows...maybe this opinion may change and if it is maharaaj jee's khushee, then may they change this opinion as they see fit.

ps - in the 'ghar thread', i agree with ur response to khalsaspirit jee. that shabad should not be used re: disproving the importance of raag. the bhaav is clearly that any type of singing/instrumentation which is not attuned to vaheguroo's love i.e. the person is doing pakhaand, is not parvaan."

Vaheguru ji ka Khalsa Vaheguru ji ki Fat-heh

Veer Atma Singh Ji,

I believe your post was more relevant here. Thank you for highlighting your agreement with the misuse of Gurbani above. I find the situation truly sad that many mischievous people use and twist bani to suit and promote their (or their groups) own ideology.

Thank you also for your comment regarding their may be bias in your current thought, that is very honest of you, if we all took this honest and intellectual stance (by disempowering our haumai), we could discuss and resolve many issues like grown ups.

Re raag timing, their is zero evidence that raag should be sung in daily time slots, this was a Hindustani Sangeet innovation which some raagis have adopted. Gurbani does in no way support this theory.

On the contrary, if one looks at the research done by Gurinder Singh Mann, we see that the Goindval Pothis do have a raag timing structure, but Guru Arjun Dev Ji has completely done away with this via the final arrangment of bani in Adi-Granth Sahib.

With regards to non raag shabd, in my understanding, this is a clear indication that this bani is not be sung. You mention what if one feels like singing it? One feels like doing many things, but that doesn't make it ok. We need to look at the evidence in front of us to improve our understanding rather than justifying our own desires.

Japji Sahib is the essence of Guru Granth Sahib - as well as the introduction, it holds a special and unique place Gurbani - and in my opinion is not for singing for the simple fact, it hasn't been presented to be sung.

 



Re: In the Bani What does Ghar Mean when refered next to Raag
Posted by: Akali_Fauja_Singh (IP Logged)
Date: August 12, 2008 05:12AM

Veer Harcharan Singh Ji

All your question can be answered quite easily.
The problem is we are trying to put parbandee's on ourselves, this clearly happening with people who are preaching that there is Gurmat Sangeet?
What is this ? where in any of our Bani does Gurmat Sangeet written?
No where , this is a made up word. like most of the stuff we debate about.

Did Bhagats like Kabir Dhana Naam dev, learn raag, no!
This is the Gift of our Guru Sahibs, Raags were parchalit in those days, we don't have to go as far as the Guru sahibs time for evidence, just look at the oldest hindi film you can find.

Raag is not a teen taal shabad or any other taals,
All kirtan all tunes all hindi film songs are all based on Raag.
Everything is raag, Raag is only a set of Swar shurti's which are consistant when you sing.
Even these so called instruments we say that are parvaan, I don't understand if some is singing with a taus as to a baja, is the baja not parvaan, surly your singing bani? therefore your voice and the call to Akal Purakh is what's parvaan not the instruments.

You can also sing without any saaj as long as you add one recipe to your singing which is:

Gobind Bou Bhagat dah Bukha? LOVE is all you need and it's parvaan, once you have that Love you will sing in the way the Guru wants you too.

Therefore the Guru's love run true, and people who mock keertan like Daya Singh Austrailia vala, who did the anand sahib in rap......there is no Love, just love for publicity.

Akali Fauja Singh Nihang

 



Re: In the Bani What does Ghar Mean when refered next to Raag
Posted by: Harcharan Singh (IP Logged)
Date: August 12, 2008 10:04AM

Veer Ji,

You are right that Gurmat Sangeet is a recently invented term, that does not however negate it’s use. Language and terminology is an ever evolving animal – which changes according to changing socio-political conditions. We can never of course change Gurbani – but we can and so add to the “Sikh” language (so to say).

The reason the term Gurmat Sangeet was deemed necessary was because literally 2-3 whole generations of Sikhs have grown up not knowing about Guru Ji’s kirtan maryada and thinking that Vaaja filmi kirtan is authentic. That simple, the term is used for educational and tradition preservation purposes. One can easily also argue the term Tat Gurmat Maryada is a recent invention, but we all know, that it serves what is deemed an important purpose.

“Did Bhagats like Kabir Dhana Naam dev, learn raag, no!”

According to Sikh Ithihaas (Bhai Manni Singh Ji Janam Sakhi), Bhagat Kabir Ji was knowledgeable in raag – Guru Nanak dev Ji says the Siddhas favourite raag was Ramkali and Bhagat Ji’s favourite raag was Gaurhi.

“This is the Gift of our Guru Sahibs, Raags were parchalit in those days, we don't have to go as far as the Guru sahibs time for evidence, just look at the oldest hindi film you can find.”

You are right that this was a gift from Guru Sahib, but it was also a clear hukum – as clearly shown in each shabd (within raag chapter) in bani. Guru Sahiban did not create such an highly organised raag framework forming the skeleton of Sri Guru Granth Sahib for fun, Kirtan being “pardaana” in Kalyug is clearly evidenced by 5th Masters musical genius. I am not sure where your Hindi film reference fits in, we are comparing apples and pears in times of goal and time span.

“Raag is not a teen taal shabad or any other taals,
All kirtan all tunes all hindi film songs are all based on Raag.
Everything is raag, Raag is only a set of Swar shurti's which are consistant when you sing.”

If we take the most general and artistic understanding of raag, then yes your comments are true, everything is raag. But in this context we are talking about kirtan as ordained by Guru in specifically mentioned raags – which form the basis of the arrangement of Gurbani (not any other form of chronology). Hence raag is actually the specific instruction to sing and EXPERIENCE in the said musical frame. Also in this context, all Hindi films are not based on raag, many of the golden oldies certainly may have had this basis (corrupted) but not over the last 20 years or so (with some exceptions).
Your explanation of raag is very ignorant and ridiculously simplified – and quite insulting actually for those who dedicate their life to study this vidya as part of their adherence to all Guru’s hukums.

“Even these so called instruments we say that are parvaan, I don't understand if some is singing with a taus as to a baja, is the baja not parvaan, surly your singing bani? therefore your voice and the call to Akal Purakh is what's parvaan not the instruments. You can also sing without any saaj as long as you add one recipe to your singing which is:
Gobind Bou Bhagat dah Bukha? LOVE is all you need and it's parvaan, once you have that Love you will sing in the way the Guru wants you too.
Therefore the Guru's love run true, and people who mock keertan like Daya Singh Austrailia vala, who did the anand sahib in rap......there is no Love, just love for publicity.”

Again you are right regarding the most important ingredient – prem. The saaz Guru Sahiban kindly gifted to us are not deemed necessary, but it is Gursikhs sharda and pyaar for their Guru that make them decide to preserve their Guru’s heritage, that is amicable. Other than that, vaaja is a blunt sounding instrument not suited to raag kirtan, as is not capable of reflecting ghar and fails in delivering key elements of raag kirtan i.e. ghamaks, but thats another subject, and the saaz as you say is not a hokum, but more a show of love for the Sikh towards his Guru. I would again agree, and say one is better off singing hukumi kirtan with a tanpura alone, rather than using a vaaja, but thats just my opinion based on the failings of vaaja in raag.

And yes, Daya Singh certainly is good at mocking Guru Sahibs beautiful kirtan tradition as are numerous ‘kirtani’ around the world who knowingly and unknowingly present Guru’s pavitar bani in joota panda i.e. filthy filmy music (old and new).

Dhanvaad.

 



Re: In the Bani What does Ghar Mean when refered next to Raag
Posted by: Akali_Fauja_Singh (IP Logged)
Date: August 13, 2008 02:07AM

Veer Harcharan Singh Ji...

Maafa karna,

Sangeet nu hor koujna peanah heh, eh cheejah Kammai naal aouwngiya.....
Jhodou tusi 8 keateh rehaaz karougeh teh fer pata lag janda hehe keh keari reet kereh raag wich hehe teh keriya swarah lagreyya han.

I gave the hindi film referance because old hindi films were classical music based all on raag.

As for the Saaz I don't believe certain saaz are parvaan and some are not, just because the Guru sahibs used them doesn't mean we should.
If we take the Saranda it has been modified, it's more like a sarangi with the base of saranda?
I saw some uk ragi here in Punjab claiming he was doing pratan keertan, but it was boring and besur all the way, and he had alsorts of saaz as well.

Sorry to say this but saaz ke karneh ya jeh sur deh vich gaye ney hunda?
Raag mala vich ounda heh keh Gayan taar milaavahee.....aap he samajlou....

Raag is a set of swar and thats it's but if you do enough practice had have command over them you can use the bani raag stay in the disciplin but make them sound totally different, puraatan kirtan was also done in Drupad,
Listen to Gundeacha Brother's they sing Drupad and have sang Gurbani deh shabad,

Akali Fauja Singh Nihang

 



Re: In the Bani What does Ghar Mean when refered next to Raag
Posted by: Harcharan Singh (IP Logged)
Date: August 13, 2008 06:24AM

Veer Ji,

You seem to be knowledgable on saaz, could you tell me where you have seen a puratan Saranda with regards to your observations. For your info, there is at least one perfectly preserved old Saranda in a western Museum, the same is not true of any examples left in India.

Again you incredibly simplify raag - your example is the equivalent of saying Gurbani is nothing more than collection of alphabetic characters.

Again, we are not discussing or debating prem Vs technical ability - but rather following hukum and preserving Guru Sahibs kirtan and Sikh virsa - which of course is only worthwhile if done with prem/sharda.

I agree with you that majority of Gurbani is suited to Dhrupad, and the Gundecha Bros are probably one of the best examples of 'devotional' Dhrupad today. The late Bhai Avtar Singh Ji was obviously a well known practitioner and conservationist of this puratan style of kirtan. Thanks for bringing it to light.

 



Re: In the Bani What does Ghar Mean when refered next to Raag
Posted by: Akali_Fauja_Singh (IP Logged)
Date: August 15, 2008 07:09AM

Veer Harcharan Singh Ji...

Raag is not hard or a difficult thing it is not intended that way.
Singing composition in different time cycles can make the sangeet produced at the time difficult.
The Saranda is in the V&A, there is also a puratan saranda at R K Mohan in Delhi Zoravar Singh Marag.
It quite extreme to say that I simplify things to being 'Gurbani is nothing more than collection of alphabetic characters. '

In regards to Bhai Avtar Singh and Bhai Balbier Singh, respect to them. But I don't think he was in any way a practitioner and conservationist of this puratan style of kirtan.
Reason he sang all bandshish which normal Rababi kirtaniyeh like Bhat Taba, Bhai Chand, etc sang.

Sikh Kirtan has a maryada, when you stay in there it become's a kirtan di chowki which anyone can do, not just Bhai Avtar Singh.

I have also seen claim's by these UK people don't know what's in it for them, but twisting things saying Guru Gobind Singh Ji played the Dil rubab, when clearly you can see Guru Ji's Rabab at Skeate Mandi.

More and more people are twisting making up there own mat maryada, and then claiming it to be a reet from the Guru Ji's day's.

Akali Fauja Singh Nihang

 



Re: In the Bani What does Ghar Mean when refered next to Raag
Posted by: Harcharan Singh (IP Logged)
Date: August 15, 2008 03:50PM

Veer Ji,

Then compare the V&A Saranda with the one made by Raj Musicals and you will see that they are not so dissimilar,

If anyone had vidya of puratan kirtan, it would have been the Rababi sevadaar who had an authentic parampara going back to Bhai Mardana, so if Bhai Avtar Singh Ji sang bandish of the Rababis, he would not have been far off target.

What makes you think that Sachaa Patshah only played one saaz? Did they only have vidya of one shastar also? As you call yourself an Akali - then you should also know the immense vidya 10th Master had of raag via Sri Sarbloh Granth Sahib - Guru Ji's practice and vidya of classical arts was not limited, but complete, be it music, poetry, art of war, study of classical texts etc.

It is actually written in early 19thc ithihaas that Guru Gobibnd Singh Ji invented and played the Taus (forerunner of the Dilruba) although another source also mentions that Guru Hargobind Sahib did so.

With regards reetan, aside from the late respected Raagi Bhai Avtaar Singh Ji, it is only Namdhari and students of the Rababis that have a rightful claim to the oldest reetan, so not sure who you are talking of here.

 



Re: In the Bani What does Ghar Mean when refered next to Raag
Posted by: Akali_Fauja_Singh (IP Logged)
Date: August 19, 2008 03:01AM

Veer Harcharan Singh Ji,

I suggest you look at these saaj and compare them.
I can tell you the saranda Raj musicals make is a sarangi made with the base of a saranda.
The Size is incorrect as well.
In my view the Guru Sahibs used these saaj because they were the saaj of the time, not to say they could play any saaj.
But I don't think that there is any importance to these saaj,
The importance is Gurbani.
Sorry to Say but Bhai Avtar Singh does Boring Kirtan and so does Bhai Balbier Singh,
I spent many years at Amritsar and all I hear from there diwans was hankaar and houmeh.
What good is singing all these badhishes that the sangat does not understand, and can not join it.

One of the principles of sikhi is Sangat, to be a sangatkar you must follow one,
hence 'Satsangat kesi jaaniyeh jithe eko naam vakhaniyeh'
So the Guru ki Sangat sings along with the shabad, that to me is more Gurmat than all these raags etc....it's all made up by people trying to make a new shop all these Gurmat Sangeet Academies. Why are we making these boundries, I went to Canada heard some Guru ke Pyareh there so much pyaar and when they play there saaj and do Kirtan no offence it sounds terrible, that is not the way it should be, and then I was in the UK where I heard another Singh claiming that he is the only one doing Gurmat Sangeet Kirtan and discourse in English?
I don't understand why he was using english, another subject.
But he also had a tous. That was the hardest time I had sitting in the Darbar, again saaj they sang like they were screaming.
How can this be the Kirtan of the Guru's.
Another thing here at Siri Dam Dama Sahib where I normaly be we have many Rababi families, they will tell you things that will break your heart so in terms of weather these reetan are old or not you and I don't know the truth, you only know what Bhai Avtar and others have told you.

In terms of me calling myself a Akali come to Dam Dama Sahib I will show what vidya we have here, Guru Ji di Apaar Bakshish heh.
In our Nihang Parampara we also have many Dasam Paatsha ji deya Bandshihs puriya vaaran which are sang within our touleh.
Come and spend 6 months with us and you we see how different everything is on this side of the fence.

This day and age the love between Mankind is failing, usee ik dujeh nu dekh ney sakdeh, everyone whats to be famous weather they result to Singing punjabi folk, or by singing Bani.

Akali Fauja Singh Nihang

 



Re: In the Bani What does Ghar Mean when refered next to Raag
Posted by: Harcharan Singh (IP Logged)
Date: August 19, 2008 05:55AM

Akali Ji, We will have to agree to disagree, what you have stated regarding great kirtan personalities is simply your opinion, and you are repeating yourself without bringig anything new or evidence/source based to the discussion. As you are an Akali, you will know that even Budda Dal set up a school to teach and preserve traditional kirtan - Budda Jor, which was set by Bhai Mehtab Singh Ji and Bhai Sukha Singh Ji.

Personally, I find anand in listening to kirtan as it is meant to be done, for me hukum is above everying - and in following hukum one achieves prem and anand. If we are to busy trying to satisfy our kan ras, justify using instruments which we are used to by degrading efforts to preserve Guru's (which are perfect for raag unlike vaaja which can't be used for meends and ghar etc) and critising other personalities, then we have already lost the game. We should aim to take the best from everyone, rather than completely right people off who don't fit into our limited bounderies.

I would love to come and spend some time with your daal, and will do so as soon as I can, particularly as you say you have puratan reetan of Dashmesh Pita.

Vaheguru ji ka Khalsa Vaheguru ji ki Fat-heh

 



Re: In the Bani What does Ghar Mean when refered next to Raag
Posted by: Akali_Fauja_Singh (IP Logged)
Date: August 19, 2008 07:05AM

Khalsa ji...

This hukam of kirtan I find hard to grasp, where is the hukam?
there is no hukam we say more of a option.
Like I said before we only say these things because we have fed these by the like of Bhai Avtar Singh and others.
Also Veer ji if you talk about meed and ghararee then it's to do with the voice meed tusi goun deh naal dekouniya, not witha saaj, kirtan is gayki ang not tantarkari ang, so there is no need to do meed on a saaj.
Another point Mahapartapi Akali Roop Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Gobind Singh Sachepaathshah did kirtan with a taanpura as well, please explain how they render meend?
Gayaki is pardhaan all saaj are for support to give you a swar, that is why you have SA PA on a taan pura or Sa MA or Sa ni.
Saaj have no real importance other than that and also to keep the hutteya of these so called gurmat sangeet acedemies open.
As you listen to Bhai Avtar Singh, then you would have heard his Katha when Kalgidar Maharaj tuned a taanpura and then put a reasham da rumaal on it and then tuned another one, when it was tune the taampura with the rumaal started playing itseld and the rumaal came off.
Gaayan taar milavayee. he then says tune the taar then tune yourself to a taar and then tune yourself via kirtan to parmeashwar.

I don't see why we have to sing like Bhai Avtaar Singh? If he has sang a Bandish in 12 beats or a partaal in 12 13 14, then why can't I sing that bandish in 14 or sing that partall in 22 23 39?

Another vichaar on partaals, the way Bahi Avtar Singh sing's his partaal and some other ragis like Kanwarpal Singh etc, the change the Taal and sing to that.
So therefore if I was doing a partaal in kalyan for example then if I joined 3 bandsish together which are in 11 15 18, does that make it a partaal?
According to Shatriya sangeet it does not become a partaal.
Even in term of Jhori, it does not work out, I have seen amny Jhori players, Baldeep come here quite a lot claiming to be the only jori player also from Bhai avtar singh's family trying to dominate this Kirtan parampera, but I heard a Namdhari Singh the other day Called Sukhvinder Pinky.
I can only say one thing after that if there is one jhori player in the world who can play jhori then it's him.
I for one will say that his jhori is the type of jhori that was played in the Guru's Darbar wha amazing laykari he does.
Our Ustad ji here is Akali Gyani Mhear Singh Ji Nihang come from the Hariya Vela Dal, he showed me the video and said, this is the true an puriest for of Jhori and you can see that would have been the type of jhori played with the Guru sahibs.
No offence but Bhai Avtar Singh and Baldeep singh and Bahi Balbier Singh are kucheh in Lay they have set reetan with there jhori players, everything is fixed. Bhai Balbier Singh Has a recoreding in the Market, his first one where he sang 15 and has lost his lay?

There many things people in the west do not know yet choose to jump on theis Gurmat Sangeet trolly.

Akali Fauja Singh Nihang

 
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