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Siri Guru Harkishan Sahib and the Haughty Pandit
Posted by: kulbir singh (IP Logged)
Date: July 23, 2008 10:19AM

Ashtam Balbira - Siri Guru Harkishan Sahib de Avtar Purab dee 'Maaha Maah Mumaarkhi'.

Today on 7 Sawan (July 23) Sikh sangats around the world are celebrating a great event in the spiritual world – the Avatar Purab of Siri Guru Harkishan Sahib jee. Siri Guru Harkishan Sahib jee was the great grandson of Siri Guru Hargobind Sahib jee and because of this, Siri Guru jee had following relationship with other Guru Sahibaan and Sahibzadas:

1) Siri Guru Harkishan Sahib jee was a grandson of Siri Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib jee. Siri Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib jee was son of Siri Guru Hargobind Sahib jee and thus brother of father of Siri Guru Har Rai Sahib jee – Baba Gurditta jee. This is why before leaving for Sachkhand, Siri Guru jee said that the next Guru is his Baba in Bakala (town). In short form he said – Baba Bakale – which meant that the next Guru is his Baba (Siri Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib jee) who resides in Bakala town.

2) Siri Guru Harkishan Sahib jee was a nephew of Siri Guru Gobind Singh jee.

3) Siri Guru Harkishan Sahib jee was a cousin of 4 Sahibzadas of Siri Guru Gobind Singh jee Maharaj.

Siri Guru jee was only 5 Earth years old when he was chosen to be the Guru by his father and Guru – Siri Guru Har Rai Sahib jee. It is written in our history that all three siblings namely Siri Guru Harkishan Sahib jee, Baba Ram Rai jee and their sister Bibi Roop Kaur possessed great natural beauty. They were very beautiful. Siri Guru jee’s beauty was greatly enhanced by being Guru. The jyot of Guruship shone on his face. Whoever looked at Siri Guru jee could not taken his eyes away.

Siri Guru jee was a pooran Brahmgyani from the time of his avatar like his great great Grandfather – Siri Guru Arjun Sahib jee. This is why, at the tender age of 5, Siri Guru jee became the 8th Guru of Sikhs. Earth years don’t matter in spiritual wisdom. Age is not a factor in spiritual knowledge or Brahmgyaan. Siri Guru Amardas jee became the Guru at the age of 73 and on the other extreme Siri Guru Harkishan Sahib jee became the Guru at the age of 5. The same jyot of Guruship pervailed in both Guru Sahibaan and both were equal in status and possessed equal amount of Brahmgyaan. The body was not the Guru but the jyot was and is the Guru.

Many doubted that a 5 year old person cannot be the Guru and cannot possess the required spiritual knowledge to deliver sinners.

An incident involving doubting Siri Guru jee because of his age occurred at Panjokhra Sahib, where Siri Guru jee arrived on his way to Delhi. There was a Pandit who inquired from a Sikh as to who had arrived in the small town of Panjokhra. The Sikh replied by saying that Siri Guru Harkishan Sahib jee, the 8th master had arrived. This pandit was very proud of his knowledge of Vedas and Shastras. He was in the habit of debating and defeating scholars on the might of his knowledge. He took offense at the name of Siri Guru jee. He was a worshipper of Siri Krishna of Brindabana and he did not like the fact that Siri Guru jee’s name was longer than his deity. He addressed the Sikh as follows:

“ਜੇ ਸਾਰਥ ਇਹ ਨਾਮ ਧਰਾਵਹੁ।
ਕਰਿ ਗੀਤਾ ਕੇ ਅਰਥ ਸੁਨਾਵਹੁ।
ਨਾਹਿ ਤਾ ਕੂਰ ਕਹਨਿ ਇਨ ਕੇਰੋ।
ਹਮ ਨਹਿ ਮਾਨਹਿਂ ਕਹਿਬੋ ਤੇਰੋ।15।

(Equal to whom (Siri Krishna) they (Siri Guru Harkishan Sahib jee) have kept their name, then let them (Siri Guru jee) do translation of Geeta (written by Siri Krishna). If he can’t do these meanings, then go tell him that I don’t accept him as the Guru).

Hearing this the Sikh replied to the Brahmin as follows:

ਸੁਨਤਿ ਸਿਖ ਕਹਿ, “ਰਹੁ ਤੂੰ ਖਰੋ”।
ਮੈਂ ਆਬਿ ਜਾਇ ਬੂਝਿਬੋ ਕਰੋਂ।

(The Sikh said, you stay standing here. I will go and deliver your message to Guru Sahib).

The Sikh hurried to the darbar of Siri Guru jee and after matha-tek told Satguru jee the whole conversation he had with the Pandit. The sangat was hearing and some in Sangat were upset after hearing of the pandit's arrogance.

Because of the tender age of Siri Guru jee, many were placing doubts in the minds of sangat. Siri Guru jee wanted to prove that age is not a factor in attaining spiritual wisdom (Brahmgyaan). The Sikh with great humility and hope beseeched, “ਖਰੋ ਅਹੈ, ਕਿਮ ਕਹੌਂ ਬੁਝਾਈ। (He is standing waiting, what should I tell him).

Jaanee-Jaan (All knowing) Siri Guru jee said to the Sikh that this pandit is a very proud person who is full of Hankaar (pride, ego). He debates like a great fool and considers himself to be very wise. He is very far from the path of meeting Prabhu (Vaheguru). The sorrow of separation from Prabhu and haume are big dukhs that only Guru Nanak Dev jee can eliminate. The diseased and the suffering person has to take the word of Guru and place it in his heart. Then alone the dukh can go.

After pausing for a moment, Siri Guru jee with mercy and grace in their eyes, said:

ਸੋ ਇਸ ਕੋ ਦੁਖ ਹਤਹਿਂ, ਬੁਲਾਵਹੁ।
ਸਿਖ ਉਪਕਾਰ ਕਰਤਿ, ਬਿਦਤਾਵਹੁ।
(ਉਸ ਦਾ ਦੁਖ ਦੂਰ ਕਰੀਏ, ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਬੁਲਾਵੋ। ਤੁਸੀਂ ਕਿਹਾ ਕਰਦੇ ਹੋ ਕਿ ਸਿਖ ਉਪਕਾਰ ਕਰਦੇ ਹਨ, ਸੋ ਤੁਹਾਡਾ ਬਚਨ ਪੂਰਾ ਕਰੀਏ). Let us eliminate his sorrow, call him. You say this all the time that Sikhs are compassionate and benevolent. So let’s fulfill your bachan.

The Sikh went back to the pandit and asked him to come to the darbar of Siri Guru jee. The pandit came to the Darbar of Siri Guru jee with hankaar (pride) and sat near Siri Guru jee. Siri Guru jee addressed him as follows:

ਪਿਖਿ ਬੋਲੇ ਸੋਢੀ ਕੁਲ ਟੀਕਾ।
ਕਹੁ ਦਿਜਬਰ, ਕਯਾ ਬੂਝਯੋ ਚਹੈਂ।
ਬਿਦਤ ਬਤਾਵਹੁ ਜਿਮ ਚਿਤ ਅਹੈ।
(On seeing the pandit arrive, the prince of Sodhi clan said, O Dijbar, what is it that you want answered? Say out that which is in your mind.)

The pandit said:

ਦਿਜ ਤਬਿ ਕਹਯੋ, ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਅਵਤਾਰ।
ਰਿਦੇ ਜਿਨਹੁਂ ਕੇ ਗਯਾਨ ਉਦਾਰ।
ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਯਾਨ ਮਯ ਗੀਤਾ ਕੀਨਸਿ।
ਜਿਹ ਪਠਿ ਸੁਨਿ ਕੈ ਲੇ ਸਭਿ ਚੀਨਸਿ।25।

Then the pandit said, “Krishna Avatar was great and in the heart of Siri Krishna immense spiritual wisdom had dawned. Using this Brahmgyaan, he uttered the Bhagwad Geeta. Hearing the paath of Geeta, one can realize everything.


ਤਿਨ ਨਾਮਨ ਤੇ ਤੁਮ ਅਧਿਕਾਯੋ।
ਸ੍ਰੀ ਹਰਿਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਨਾਮ ਰਖਾਯੋ।
ਪੁਨ ਗੁਰ ਗਾਦੀ ਪਰ ਥਿਤ ਅਹੋ।
ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਮ ਅਪਨੋ ਜਗ ਲਹੋ।26।

You (O Siri Guru Harkishan Sahib jee) have named yourself even greater than Siri Krishna i.e. the name “Harkrishan” is longer than “Krishna”. On top of this, you have placed yourself on the seat of the Gurus and made it famous in the world that you are the Guru.


ਗੀਤਾ ਬਿਖੈ ਪ੍ਰਸ਼ਨ ਬਡ ਮੇਰੇ।
ਉਤਰ ਦੇਹੁ, ਤੁਮ ਸੁਨੇ ਬਡੇਰੇ।
ਜੋ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਨਾਵਨਿ ਕੀਨਿ।
ਅਰਥ ਦੇਹੋ ਜੋ ਲੇਵੌਂ ਚੀਨ।27।
ਸਾਰਥ ਜਾਨੌ ਨਾਮ ਤੁਮਾਰੋ।
ਨਾਂਹਿ ਤ ਨੀਕੇ ਨਹੀਂ ਨਿਹਾਰੋ।

Regarding Siri Krishna’s Geeta, I have big questions, many questions. Answer me, I have heard from your Sikhs that you are great. If you are able to answer the questions that I will ask from Sri Krishna’s Geeta, I will consider you to be worthy of your name (Harkrishna); otherwise, I will not see you as good and pious.


ਸ੍ਰੀ ਹਰਿਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਸੁਨਤਿ ਬਚ ਕਹਯੋ।
ਬਾਦੀ ਬਿਪ੍ਰ ਜਾਤਿ ਕੋ ਲਹਯੋ।
ਜੇ ਕਰ ਹਮ ਤੁਝਿ ਅਰਥ ਸੁਨਾਵਹਿਂ।
ਤਊ ਕਲਪਨਾ ਅਨਿਕ ਉਠਾਵਹਿਂ।
ਧਨੀ ਪੁਰਖ ਇਹ ਭਾਗ ਬਲੀ ਹੈ।
ਕਿਨਹੁਂ ਪਢਾਏ ਪਾਠ ਭਲੀ ਹੈ।29

Hearing the pandit, Siri Guru Harkishan Sahib jee said, “It’s the habit of Bipars (pandits) to have doubt on everything. If I successfully do the meanings of Geeta, you will raise the doubt by saying that since I am from a rich and resourceful family, I must have learned the meanings from scholars.

ਪ੍ਰਥਮ ਪਠੀ ਹੁਇ ਗੀ ਕਿਸ ਪਾਸ।
ਇਮ ਜਾਨਹਿਂ, ਨਹਿਂ ਹੁਇ ਬਿਸਵਾਸ।
ਯਾਂ ਤੇ ਪ੍ਰਥਮ ਕਾਰ ਇਮ ਕੀਜੈ।
ਆਪ ਨਗਰ ਮਹਿਂ ਜਾਇ ਪਿਖੀਜੈ।30।

You will say that I must have learned the meanings from someone. This way you will stay faithless i.e. you will not get faith. Therefore, the first thing you should do is that go to your town and look for someone.


ਜੋ ਅਪਠਤਿ ਹੁਇ ਮੂਢ ਬਿਸਾਲਾ।
ਤਿਹ ਬੁਲਾਇ ਆਨਹੁ ਇਸ ਕਾਲਾ।
ਸੋ ਉਤਰ ਦੈ ਹੈ ਤੁਝ ਚਾਹਤਿ।
ਜਿਨ ਬੂਝਨਿ ਹਿਤ ਨੀਤ ਉਮਾਹਤਿ।31।

Someone who is a “Moodh Bisaala” i.e. Big fool, very ignorant person and call him to our Darbar right away. Whatever your questions are about Geeta, he will answer them for you.

ਸੁਨਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੋ ਬਾਕ ਰਸੀਲਾ।
ਬਿਪੂ ਭਣੋ ਮਦ ਤੇ ਕੁਛ ਢਲਿਾ।
ਗਯੋ ਨਗਰ ਮਹਿ ਧਵਿਰ ਹੇਰਾ।
ਘਰ ਘਰ ਨਿਤ ਜਲ ਢੋਇ ਘਨੇਰਾ।32।

Hearing the nectarous bachans of Satguru jee, the pride in the pandit subsided a bit. He went to the town and looked for the most foolish person, house to house.


Finally he found a person who he thought was ideal for the situation. The person was a deaf and dumb, totally uneducated and very poor. Mahakavi Santokh Singh jee writes about him as follows:

ਮਹਾਂ ਮੂਢ ਬੋਲਬਿ ਨਹਿਂ ਜਾਨੈ।
ਪੇਟ ਭਰਨਿ ਲੌ ਕਾਰਜ ਠਾਨੈ।
ਕਾਰੋ ਬਰਨ ਬਸਤ੍ਰ ਤਨ ਫਾਰੇ।
ਜਿਨ ਪਢਤੇ ਨਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਨਿਹਾਰੇ।33।

He was very big fool who could not speak. To fill his stomach he did meagre jobs. His skin colour was totally black, and clothes on him were torn. Let alone he getting any education, he had not even seen anyone study. This is how ignorant he was.

He was brought over to the Darbar of Siri Guru jee. The pandit was very happy thinking that Jheevar (the foolish person) would never be able to speak, let alone do any translations of Geeta. Siri Guru jee right away caught the thought of the pandit and glanced at the jheevar with “Shubh Disht” (Eye of grace) and with smile on his face said to the jheevar:

ਮੁਖਿ ਮੁਸਕਾਵਤਿ ਬਾਕ ਬਖਾਨਾ।
ਬਿਪ੍ਰ ਮਨੋਰਥ ਜਿਮ ਉਰ ਠਾਨਾ।37।
ਸੋ ਤੈਂ ਬੂਝਨਿ ਕਰਿ ਕੈ ਅਬਿ ਹੂੰ।
ਸ਼ੰਕਤਿ ਕੋ ਉਤਰ ਦਿਹੁ ਸਭਿ ਹੂੰ।

(With smiling face, Siri Guru jee uttered the bachans to the foolish jheevar. As per the wish of the pandit, you will realize all knowledge needed, and respond to all questions of the pandit.)

When Satguru jee uttered these Vaaks (words) and placed his chhadee (stick) on the forehead of the jheevar all divine knowledge dwelled in the heart of the foolish jheevar. The first thing that happened was that face of the jheevar started reflecting the inner knowledge he had attained. He face started shining. He was then able to speak.

The pandit asked the most difficult salok from Geeta to be translated. The Jheevar, spontaneously gave the most exalted translation of the salok. Such was the translation that the pandit had never heard of such words before. He was wonder-struck. He could not believe his ears. He asked couple of more questions but then was too wonder-struck to say anything else. Then at that time, his good karma from previous birth sprouted. His pride was overtaken by immense humility. His hand folded. He moved forward and prostrated before Siri Guru jee. With extreme humility he pleaded:

ਬੋਲਯੋ, ਮਹਿਮਾ ਲਖੀ ਅਨੂਪ।
ਸ੍ਰੀ ਹਰਿਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਸੁ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਸਰੂਪ।
ਭੇਦ ਨ ਫੁਰਤਿ ਮੋਹਿ ਮਨ ਮਾਂਹੀ।
ਵਹੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਤੁਮ ਹੋ ਅਨ ਨਾਂਹੀ।
ਭਵਸਾਗਰ ਤੇ ਮੋਹਿ ਉਧਾਰਹੁ।
ਧਾਰਹੁ ਕਰੁਨਾ ਬਿਰਦ ਸੰਭਾਰਹੁ।
(He said, I have realized that your greatness is unmatched. You O Siri Guru Harkishan are Siri Krishna for me. I have no doubt about it. You are the same jyot. Deliver me from this ocean of world. Have mercy on me.)

Siri Guru jee accepted his plea and gave him Naam Gurmantra there and then. Siri Guru jee accepted him as his Sikh. As per Mahakavi Santokh Singh jee, he was given Charan Pahul and initiated as a Sikh there and then.

What a great story this is. This story echoes hukams of Gurbani like:

ਕਰਿ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਮਸਤਕਿ ਹਥੁ ਧਰਿ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਮਾਰਿ ਕਢੀਆ ਬੁਰਿਆਈਆ ॥
ਸਹਿ ਤੁਠੈ ਨਉ ਨਿਧਿ ਪਾਈਆ ॥18॥

ਅਤੇ

ਸਿਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਭ ਊਪਰਿ ॥
ਕਰੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਸਤਜੁਗਿ ਜਿਨਿ ਧ੍ਰੂ ਪਰਿ ॥
ਸ੍ਰੀ ਪ੍ਰਹਲਾਦ ਭਗਤ ਉਧਰੀਅੰ ॥
ਹਸœ ਕਮਲ ਮਾਥੇ ਪਰ ਧਰੀਅੰ ॥

When Guru Sahib places their divine hand on our forehead, only then one can realize Vaheguru and only then the hardwork of japping Naam, doing paath and keeping rehit is accepted.

We think that Chhajoo Jheevar was very foolish but are we any less foolish than him? What's the point of having knowledge of this world when we don't have the knowledge or the gyaan that is relevant in the next world? It's like possessing a trillion dollars in Zimbawe's money and feeling proud of it. A 100 billion dollars of Zimbawe's currency can buy you only one loaf of bread. So what is this trillion dollars going to do for us in Canada? Nothing. Same way, one may have all the knowledge of physics, chemistry, accounting, mathematics, biology, genetics and what not but if one does not have Brahmgyaan i.e. the divine spiritual knowledge of Vaheguru, then all the worldly knowledge is a waste. It's going to be rendered useless in the next world. Even in this world, what's the point of having gyaan when that gyaan does not enable or prompt us to japp Naam and meet Vaheguru. Until we attain Gurmat-Gyaan, and until we eliminate the Durmat from within through Gurmat of Guru Sahib, we are just as foolish as Chajjoo Jheevar was prior to meeting Guru Sahib.

May Parm-Kirpaaloo, Param-Dyaaloo, Satguru Sache Paatshaah – Ashtam-Balbira – Siri Guru Harkishan Sahib jee have mercy on us and place their lotus hand on our forehead, so that the ignorance may be eliminated from our hearts and replaced with divine knowledge of Vaheguru jee.

Daas,
Kulbir Singh

 



Re: Siri Guru Harkishan Sahib and the Haughty Pandit
Posted by: ... (IP Logged)
Date: July 25, 2008 04:07AM

vaheguroo

BUMP!!!

 



Re: Siri Guru Harkishan Sahib and the Haughty Pandit
Posted by: Harcharan Singh (IP Logged)
Date: July 25, 2008 08:28AM

Thank you veer Kulbir ji, that was a wonderful tribute.

 



Re: Siri Guru Harkishan Sahib and the Haughty Pandit
Posted by: Anonymous User (IP Logged)
Date: July 27, 2008 04:45AM

slightly confused here

the version i grew up with was that Guru Harikrishan was walking through the devotees in a place and a pandit was standing by a tree and made remarks about people worshipping a mere child. then a poor illiterate devotee rushed foward to respond to the pandit. he inivited the pandit to test his knowledge as a devotee of the 'mere child'. the pandit did and was astonished by the responses the devotee gave.

i dont know if this is the same story. anyone else heard this version?

 



Re: Siri Guru Harkishan Sahib and the Haughty Pandit
Posted by: kulbir singh (IP Logged)
Date: July 28, 2008 06:47AM

Navjot jee,

----------
the version i grew up with was that Guru Harikrishan was walking through the devotees in a place and a pandit was standing by a tree and made remarks about people worshipping a mere child. then a poor illiterate devotee rushed foward to respond to the pandit. he inivited the pandit to test his knowledge as a devotee of the 'mere child'. the pandit did and was astonished by the responses the devotee gave.
----------

The above story is based on Sooraj Parkash Granth by Kavi Santok Singh. If you go to the Gurdwara Sahib itself, there too, I believe, the above stated version of this saakhi is written. I have never heard or read the version that you have stated.

Kulbir Singh

 



Re: Siri Guru Harkishan Sahib and the Haughty Pandit
Posted by: gurmantar (IP Logged)
Date: August 03, 2008 11:19AM

...VAHEGURU...DHAN SAT GURU SAHIB SRI GURU HARKRISHAN SAHIB JI!!!

 



Re: Siri Guru Harkishan Sahib and the Haughty Pandit
Posted by: Outwardly (IP Logged)
Date: August 07, 2008 07:33AM

WOW! What a relevant Sakhi!!
A quick question, however:

-----------------
ਕਰਿ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਮਸਤਕਿ ਹਥੁ ਧਰਿ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਮਾਰਿ ਕਢੀਆ ਬੁਰਿਆਈਆ ॥
ਸਹਿ ਤੁਠੈ ਨਉ ਨਿਧਿ ਪਾਈਆ ॥18॥
-----------------

Should ਸਹਿ be pronounced as "Sheh" (Persian for Master) and should there be nasal sound on end?

Vaheguru Jee Ka Khalsa,
Vaheguru Jee Kee Fateh!

 



Re: Siri Guru Harkishan Sahib and the Haughty Pandit
Posted by: kulbir singh (IP Logged)
Date: August 07, 2008 08:07AM

Quote:
-----------------
ਕਰਿ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਮਸਤਕਿ ਹਥੁ ਧਰਿ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਮਾਰਿ ਕਢੀਆ ਬੁਰਿਆਈਆ ॥
ਸਹਿ ਤੁਠੈ ਨਉ ਨਿਧਿ ਪਾਈਆ ॥18॥
-----------------

Should ਸਹਿ be pronounced as "Sheh" (Persian for Master) and should there be nasal sound on end?

The pronunciation of ਸਹਿ should be like shah. It should not be a long shaah but a very short shah just like ਦਰਗਹ, ਪਨਹ, ਅਲਹ should not be pronounced like dargeh, paneh and Alleh but as Dargah, Panah and Allah. If you listen to kirtan by Bhai Joginder Singh Talwara jee, you will notice that he pronounces Dargah (not dargeh). There is no such word as Alleh. The word is Allah and it should be prnounced as such. Most Persian words ending with a he are pronounced as Kanna but again it depends on the accent of Persian too. I have referred to Pakistan Farsi scholar, who holds a Masters in Farsi - Mohammad Yusaf, a Bazurg in our neighbourhood, and he confirmed this below stated rule with me.

These words (Dargah, Panah, Shah etc.) are Persian words and normally are written with a Alif (kanna) before he (haaha) but in poetry to keep the poetic metre in control, many times are written without the Alif (kanna). In such cases the uchaaran is still like a kanna and haaha but it is a very quick one and a short one. These Persian words have been written in Gurbani using same spellings as Persian. To pronounce these words like Hindi/Sanskrit is does not seem to be correct. The rules for pronouncing Indian words and Persian words are not same especially when it involves 'haaha'.

Please refer to Gurbani Uchaaran book written by Bhai Dhanna Singh for more details.

Rest, I am aware of different schools of thought when it comes to Gurbani uchaaran and don't wish to debate which is the best. I have just given my personal viewpoint on Gurbani uchaaran.

Daas,
Kulbir Singh

 



Re: Siri Guru Harkishan Sahib and the Haughty Pandit
Posted by: Khalsaspirit (IP Logged)
Date: August 07, 2008 09:55AM

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Bhai kulbir Singh jio,

Thanks for information on ਦਰਗਹ, ਪਨਹ, ਅਲਹ. Interestingly, past weekend we had discussion on some ucharans and these three words came into light. We were three sareer ਸਰੀਰ who were discussing. Although as usual majority rules we ended up pronouncing as written but the other argument was same as you explained and the Singh who was holding that argument (with added light kanna before hahha) also referred to Bhai Joginder Singh Ji Talwara's ucharan for those words because he some time did the company of Bhai Sahib but on the other hand we were on the stance to pronounce those as written so we two were on one side and majority ruled but your explanation realized us how majority could be wrong.

Guru Mehar Karay

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

 



Re: Siri Guru Harkishan Sahib and the Haughty Pandit
Posted by: Anonymous User (IP Logged)
Date: August 20, 2008 08:01AM

these words ਦਰਗਹ, ਪਨਹ, ਅਲਹ may have originated from Persian but they are not persian words they are panjabi words. they are entirely valid in that respect in the pronunciation given. It is panjabi being spoken here not farsi.

e.g.

kagaz is persian/urdu. Kagad is panjabi.

likewise desh is hindi. des is panjabi.

people educated in urdu instruction schools last century decided that urdu pronunciation must be correct and disregard native panjabi, most obviously be inventing sounds like 'shasha' and 'zazza' that were never panjabi sounds. they have attacked the beauty of the language.

 



Re: Siri Guru Harkishan Sahib and the Haughty Pandit
Posted by: kulbir singh (IP Logged)
Date: August 20, 2008 08:23AM

Navjot,

But in Punjabi too the pronunciation of these words (ਦਰਗਹ, ਪਨਹ, ਅਲਹ ) is as suggested by this daas in the previous post.

Quote:
people educated in urdu instruction schools last century decided that urdu pronunciation must be correct and disregard native panjabi, most obviously be inventing sounds like 'shasha' and 'zazza' that were never panjabi sounds. they have attacked the beauty of the language.

First of all, we need to realize that it's not Punjabi language we are speaking when reciting Gurbani. Secondly, who says that there was no shasha sound in Punjabi. Do Punjabis say sabad instead of shabad or saanti instead of shaanti?

Kulbir Singh

 



Re: Siri Guru Harkishan Sahib and the Haughty Pandit
Posted by: xzik101 (IP Logged)
Date: August 20, 2008 08:32AM

Navjot Singh jee, I don't know if you come from Bihar or Punjab, because I know that in Bihar they pronounce words with Shasha as Sassa. But in Punjab I know that they pronounce most words with Shasha. I don't know any Punjabi who pronounces "Bangladesh" as "Bangladess", or any Punjabi Sikh who pronounces Guru Har Krishan Sahib Jee as "Guru HarKrissan Sahib Jee". I know Biharis pronounce words like this, but not Punjabis, especially those who speak the standard Punjabi of Taksali Boli.

 



Re: Siri Guru Harkishan Sahib and the Haughty Pandit
Posted by: Khalsaspirit (IP Logged)
Date: August 20, 2008 10:00AM

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Navjot jio,

ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕੀਜੀਏ ਆਪ ਸਾਂਤੀ (saanti) ਹੀ ਬਨਾਏ ਰੱਖੇਂ।

Guru Mehar Karay

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

 



Re: Siri Guru Harkishan Sahib and the Haughty Pandit
Posted by: Anonymous User (IP Logged)
Date: August 20, 2008 11:56AM

kulbir singh i should have picked up the example of 'sahi' (or as you say 'shah') that you used.

we are not speaking panjabi when reading Gurbani? well I agree if by that you mean modern panjabi. But I suppose there are some other dialects there from Bhagats from different states. but i personally would contend that these had all been 'transferred' into panjabi sounds.

the script is the base or essense of the language. it is the sounds that make up the language. the letters of its alphabet represent its own range of sounds. if the sound is not in the script then does it exist in the language?

there was never any letter for 'sh' in Gurmukhi like there is in Hindi. Pairee bindee Sassa is a modern invention. Likewise with Zay or the Farsi letter for 'Z'. If the sound is not in the script how can it be in the language? especially in Gurmukhi look how we have specific letters for the different 'T', 'D' or 'N' sounds. We differentiate between Babba and Bhabba but no corresponding shasha for sassa exists. why?

what modern panjabis say doesnt count because it has been adulterated by hindi/urdu.

Im not a linguist but im ready to bet some good money that the old panjabis DID say sabad and not shabad. the exception perhaps would be panjabi pandits who studied Sanskrit and used the Devanagari script.

and no xzikh101 i am not from Bihar but the Bihar point is interesting. Biharis generally tend to be poorer and also less Hindi-speaking influence, so perhaps they havent been influenced by modern pronunciation. I dont know what their language is like but since panjabi is very similar in diction and vocabularly to hindi/urdi im not surprised this influence is stronger in panjabi. Likewise if I go to a majore Bihari city am I going to hear their language or Hindi/Urdu like I hear/would expect to hear in Chandigarh or Lahore respectively?

Akal forgive my errors

 



Re: Siri Guru Harkishan Sahib and the Haughty Pandit
Posted by: Atma Singh (IP Logged)
Date: August 20, 2008 02:57PM

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ

veer/bhain navjot jee,

pls do a search for threads in this and the old forum - this issue has been covered many times.

i personally find it hard to accept that siree guroo nanak sahib jee who conversed with many muslim holy men and we are told via janam sakhees was 'taught' by a local muslim scholar regarding qu'ranic philosophy as a child, would ever pronounce allah as allho or shabad as sabad.

why would maharaaj jee for some unknown reason decide to ignore sh and z sounds event though at the time of the mughals, there would have been so many words in common and state-usage which feature these sounds? the only explanation is that like many alphabets the world over, letters can and do have more than one sound.

furthermore, proof that one letter can have more than one sound approach abounds in gurbaaNee - we need not look to the validity of pairee bindeeaa(n) regarding sassa, jajja, phapha, khakha and gagga to understand this.

for example, 'prubh' which features the letter phabbha at the end yet it is featured as a strong B sound. when at the beginning of a word, phabbha has the more usual and 'official' soft sound i.e. 'bhagat' - here it sounds like a soft pappa.

however, despite my personal views, i would never dare to say that doing the ucharan of the word shabad as sabad, or for that matter vice-versa, would mean someone is doing shudh/ashudh paath. this is because maharaaj jee alone knows which pathee is really doing shudh or ashudh paath.

it is a BIG THING to say someone is doing ashudh paath when it comes to factors such as pairee bindee alphabets, haha at the end of words, tippees etc.

it is down to every individual to do ardaas to maharaaj jee for the daan of shudh paath and to hope that their ardaas is worthy of being answered.

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ

ਦਾਸ,
ਆਤਮਾ ਸਿੰਘ

 



Re: Siri Guru Harkishan Sahib and the Haughty Pandit
Posted by: Anonymous User (IP Logged)
Date: August 21, 2008 04:18AM

ssa

hello Atma Singh. I must say that to me it seems that you speak very sincerely in your post which i aprreciate.

i would say that Guru Nanak would use the language of the person being spoken to. If speaking in Persian or Arabic or rektha no doubt he would says Allah. But when speaking panjabi why wouldnt he speak panjabi? Your objection, to me, is basically based on a personal prejudice against Panjabi being 'wrong' or uneducated-man's basha. Guru Nanak did not merely talk to muslim holy men. Is it okay for me to assume that he spoke to everyday people? People who only knew panjabi. Like I am suggesting saying 'sabad' is not wrong or invalid, it is panjabi.

i have heard Bengali/Bangla speakers says Krishno (or even what sounds like Krisno) rather than Krishna. Is their way wrong? They have such a strong Vaishnava tradition, how can anyone tell them their pronunciation is wrong? Those Bengalis wont accept it. They never heeded Hindi over their own accent.

i do not find your example about letters having dual sounds very convincing; Because I do pronounce Bhagat with the given B sound and not as a 'soft p' as you suggest. e.g. I say 'Bh'agti not Phagti. Likewise this is what I hear around me. I hear people say 'Bh'agat Singh not 'P'agat Singh! Just to give some context I grew up around panjabi speakers from villages who did not have much formal education, so were not taught hindi vocabularly. Alternatively panjabi accents do vary from region to region, but to say that 'Bh' is ever like 'p' is still unconvincing.

i am certainly not advising anyone on what 'shudh' paath is either.

all im saying is that over past 100 or 200 years so much has been invented, altered, lost or hidden or changed in our sikhi tradition due to often well-meaning but misguided influence. panjabi was deemed as illiterate chatter needed to be 'corrected' by hindi rather than a pure self-existing language valid in its own right. this is why people may find it inconceivable that sabad is not shabad. they think to say sabad makes you sound uneducated.

What I am saying about panjabi accent and panjabi version of words is so obvious yet few people realise.

 



Re: Siri Guru Harkishan Sahib and the Haughty Pandit
Posted by: xzik101 (IP Logged)
Date: August 21, 2008 01:15PM

Navjot SIngh Jee, I don't think we should confuse colloquial language with the standard written language.

Every area has its own slangs and colloquial language. For example, I don't write English the way I speak English. I use many English slangs and words which are colloquial, but if I write them the way I speak, then my written English would be incorrect. No matter where you come from in the world and regardless of how you speak English, the written English is always the same all over the world.

Similarly, no matter which area in Punjab one might come from whether it is Majha Malwa or Doaba, but their written Punjabi is almost always identical, which is called Taksali Boli. When we speak Punjabi, we use many of our regional dialects, slangs which we never use in written Punjabi language because written language is always more refined and should never be confused with colloquial spoken language.

Even within Punjab we have many different dialects which pronouse words differently, but the written language is always the same Punjabi. Guru Nanak Dev Jee was from Nankana Sahib, and I have met Pakistani who are from Nankana Sahib, when they speak Punjabi they always pronouse Zaza and Shasha, which leads me to believe that if people from the area of Nankana Sahib pronouse these sounds, then it’s likely that Guru Nanak Dev Jee also pronounced these sounds.

In Gurmukhi Sasa has dual sounds which should not be confused with the Punjabi Sasa which only has one sound i.e. the sound of “s”. Depending on the word,it can be pronounced as “SSS” or “SSHH” just as many English words have dual sounds depending on the words. For example, the letter “C” can sound like an “s” if you write “Cell” but it can also sound like a “k” if you write “Call”. Same letter but with two different sounds. Similarly Sasa and Jaja have dual sounds in Gurmukhi depending on the word it’s used in. Many people confuse Punjab with Gurmukhi and make the mistake of applying the rules of Punjabi to Gurmukhi. We need to differenciate the two because they are not the same.

In modern Punjab, to make it less confusing schollors have added the bindi to some words which prior to that innovation had dual sounds. If you read some Punjab literature from before this linguistic innovation such as Shah Mohammad's Jangnama letters like Sassa and Jajja were used without the bindi, but after that innovation they now have bindi. After the linguistic innovation of bindi, in the Punjabi language Sassa and Jajja stoped having dual sounds as it did prior to this innovation. Since this innovation many people for the last 100 years or so have stopped using dual sound for even Gurmukhi when reading Gurbani as they once did because they now apply the rules of Punjabi language to the rules of Gurmukhi.

 



Re: Siri Guru Harkishan Sahib and the Haughty Pandit
Posted by: Atma Singh (IP Logged)
Date: August 21, 2008 02:52PM

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ

veer/bhain navjot jee,

"i would say that Guru Nanak would use the language of the person being spoken to. If speaking in Persian or Arabic or rektha no doubt he would says Allah".

maharaaj jee may deliver their updesh to an individual but it holds true and is meant for all humanity at all times - if you wish, i can prove that gurbaaNee backs-up this viewpoint very firmly.

so the question is, how will you decide when doing paath if maharaaj jee is saying allaho or allah? will you decide this upon the basis of who you think they are addressing?

from memory (i could be wrong), even when it is without an aunkharD and there is just a haha at the end, many still say alleh. did siree guroo nanak sahib jee never address muslims to whom They would have done uchaaran of the word as allah according to your own opinion above? please think about this point carefully before responding.

"i do not find your example about letters having dual sounds very convincing; Because I do pronounce Bhagat with the given B sound and not as a 'soft p' as you suggest. e.g. I say 'Bh'agti not Phagti. Likewise this is what I hear around me. I hear people say 'Bh'agat Singh not 'P'agat Singh! Just to give some context I grew up around panjabi speakers from villages who did not have much formal education, so were not taught hindi vocabularly. Alternatively panjabi accents do vary from region to region, but to say that 'Bh' is ever like 'p' is still unconvincing".

veer jee, please tell me if you pronounce the beginning of the word dharam and the end of the word yudh as the same sound (i think they have the same letter? lol). if you do, i promise i will investigate more as perhaps it is the way i do ucharan which is wrong. anyhow, i am sure veer kulbir singh jee will have many better examples for your consideration compared to the ones i have put forward.

also, i do not consider those that say 'allho' or 'sabad' as un-educated. that is an unfair assumption of your's.

veer/bhain xzil101 jee

your points are very interesting but i just wanted to humbly point-out one error. regarding:

"No matter where you come from in the world and regardless of how you speak English, the written English is always the same all over the world".

veer jee, this is incorrect - written english is not the same all over the world. for instance, americans spell 'civilisation' as 'civilization'. the letter 's' has for a long time been equivalent to a 'z' sound in english however americans have decided to place a 'z' where the english would have placed a 's' to get a 'z' sound in their americanised version of english. the word 'criticise' is also often spelt by them as 'criticize'.

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ

ਦਾਸ,
ਆਤਮਾ ਸਿੰਘ

 



Re: Siri Guru Harkishan Sahib and the Haughty Pandit
Posted by: Harcharan Singh (IP Logged)
Date: August 22, 2008 05:06AM

Sorry to go off topic, but just out of interested, do Canadians use real English or the AmericaniZed version?

 



Re: Siri Guru Harkishan Sahib and the Haughty Pandit
Posted by: Anonymous User (IP Logged)
Date: August 22, 2008 05:44AM

ssa

hello xzik101,

The alphabet IS the language, regardless of dialects within the language. You wont hear Chinese sounds in English because though sounds arent part of the English alphabet/pronunciation system. It is very simple. How can we in our panjabi script have two 'R' sounds (one of which, if i am not mistaken, is unique to panjabi and does not occur in Hindi or Urdu), yet only one 'S'. So I still hold that there was never any Shasha or Zazza in Panjabi language. this talk of colloquial differences is essentially a digression.

I think it would be helpful if we kept to indian languages when citing examples. world languages are two varied. it is ridiculous to compare english and panjabi.

Do you know that there are two ways of pronouncing the Name Shiva? Shiva and Siva. Im not sure here but I think Siva is the Sanskrit way or saying it.

It is not correct to infer Guru Nanaks pronunciation on what muslims today from Nankana speak. Pakistanis have a heavy leaning to Urdu. Its in all likelyhood that they were speaking Urdu-tinged panjabi. Nanakana is not remote, no doubt the schools there are Urdu instruction schools.

There is no Gurmukhi without Panjabi. How on earth can you seperate the two? Unless to say MODERN panjabi and Gurmukhi are not the same, which is exactly what I am saying. If you do try and seperate the two then where do the rules of Gurmukhi pronunciation come from? Purely from the script- this is the only spund answer. Again this means there is no Shasha. What are others using as a term of reference if not the script (i.e. say what you see)? Their own personal language and biases? I,e, it must be shabad not sabad because this is how we pronounce these days? is this a sound approach?

Its a simple point. Gurmukhi has a set number of sounds/letters. Each letter represents a sound. we have four 'd' and four 't' sounds, four 'n' (five if you count the bindi) sounds and even two 'r' sounds! yet you are telling me the Sassa has a dual purpose? There are no 'dual' sounds in pure panjabi. You gave the example 'cell' this spelling probably represents the original pronunication of the word, from Latin or wherever it came from. Even here you can see that the English speakers converted into their language.

These modern 'scholars' came out of Urdu instruction schools. They wanted to use Hindi and Urdu vocabulary in their writting. Because they wanted to mobilise panjabi script for political use. This is modern panjabi. I say it is the reverse of what you wrote in your last paragraph. It is people using this modern panjabi with its recently invented notions of correct pronunciation that are saying there is shashas there because old pronunications sound foreign to them. Another example is the introduction of english grammar signs into modern panjabi. Old panjabi never had commas or question marks. I have paath pothis where the printer has inserted commas into text. Isnt this an outrage? Infact pad ched was created out of emulation of English- putting gaps between words. Old readers never needed those gaps but modern ones depend on them!

 
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