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Dasam Bani/ Nitnem : Differences in Gutke... Help with Uchaaran
Posted by: Manvir Singh Khalsa (IP Logged)
Date: July 08, 2008 08:24AM

Vaheguru Jee Ka Khalsa,
Vaheguru Jee Kee Fateh.

I have a few queries regarding Bani & differences in Gutke. It would great if any Gurmukh Pyaare can me help me please.



22nd PAUREE OF BENTI CHAUPAI SAHIB:

ਰੱਛਾ ਹੋਇ ਤਾਹਿ ਸਭ ਕਾਲਾ ॥ ਦੁਸ਼ਟ ਅਰਿਸ਼ਟ ਟਰੇ ਤਤਕਾਲਾ ॥੩੯੮॥
rachha hoe taahi sabh kaalaa. dusht aristt tare tatkaalaa.
(Singh Brothers & Sikh Missionary Gutka Sahib, also www.SriDasam.org)

OR

ਰੱਛਾ ਹੋਇ ਤਾਹਿ ਸਭ ਕਾਲਾ ॥ ਦੁਸ਼ਟ ਅਰਿਸ਼ਟ ਟਰੈ ਤਤਕਾਲਾ ॥੩੯੮॥
rachha hoe taahi sabh kaalaa. dusht aristt tarai tatkaalaa.
(Damdami Taksaal Gutka Sahib)


Q: Is tare or tarai?


THIRD PAUREE OF SVAIYYE:

ਗੁੰਜਤ ਗੂੜ ਗਜਾਨ ਕੇ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਹਿੰਸਤ ਹੈਂ ਹਯਰਾਜ ਹਜਾਰੇ ॥
gunjat gooR gajaan ke sundar hinsat hai hayraaj hajaare.
(Singh Brothers Gutka Sahib & www.SriDasam.org)

OR

ਗੁੰਜਤ ਗੂੜ ਗਜਾਨ ਕੇ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਹਿੰਸਤ ਹੀਂ ਹਯਰਾਜ ਹਜਾਰੇ ॥
gunjat gooR gajaan ke sundar hinsat hee hayraaj hajaare.
(Damdami Taksaal Gutka Sahib)

Q: Is it "hee" (ਹੀਂ) or "hai" (ਹੈਂ)[b]



[b]FOURTH PAUREE OF SVAIYYE:


ਤੀਰਥ ਨਾਨ ਦਇਆ ਦਮ ਦਾਨ ਸੁ ਸੰਜਮ ਨੇਮ ਅਨੇਕ ਬਿਸੇਖੈ
ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਕਤੇਬ ਕੁਰਾਨ ਜਮੀਨ ਜਮਾਨ ਸਬਾਨ ਕੇ ਪੇਖੈ
ਪਉਨ ਅਹਾਰ ਜਤੀ ਜਤ ਧਾਰ ਸਬੈ ਸੁ ਬਿਚਾਰ ਹਜਾਰਕ ਦੇਖੈ
ਸ੍ਰੀ ਭਗਵਾਨ ਭਜੇ ਬਿਨੁ ਭੂਪਤਿ ਏਕ ਰਤੀ ਬਿਨੁ ਏਕ ਨ ਲੇਖੈ ॥੪॥੨੪॥
teerath naan deiaa dam daam su sanjam nem anek bisekhai.
bed puraan kateb kuraan jameen jamaan sabaan ke pekhai.
paun ahaar jatee jat Dhaar sabai su bichaar hajaarak dekhai.
sree bhagvaan bhaje bin bhoopat eik ratee bin eik na lekhai.
(Damdami Taksaal Gutka Sahib & www.SriDasam.org)

OR

ਤੀਰਥ ਨਾਨ ਦਇਆ ਦਮ ਦਾਨ ਸੁ ਸੰਜਮ ਨੇਮ ਅਨੇਕ ਬਿਸੇਖੇ
ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਕਤੇਬ ਕੁਰਾਨ ਜਮੀਨ ਜਮਾਨ ਸਬਾਨ ਕੇ ਪੇਖੇ
ਪਉਨ ਅਹਾਰ ਜਤੀ ਜਤ ਧਾਰ ਸਬੈ ਸੁ ਬਿਚਾਰ ਹਜਾਰਕ ਦੇਖੇ
ਸ੍ਰੀ ਭਗਵਾਨ ਭਜੇ ਬਿਨੁ ਭੂਪਤਿ ਏਕ ਰਤੀ ਬਿਨੁ ਏਕ ਨ ਲੇਖੇ ॥੪॥੨੪॥
teerath naan deiaa dam daam su sanjam nem anek bisekhe.
bed puraan kateb kuraan jameen jamaan sabaan ke pekhe.
paun ahaar jatee jat Dhaar sabai su bichaar hajaarak dekhe.
sree bhagvaan bhaje bin bhoopat eik ratee bin eik na lekhe.
(Singh Brothers & Sikh Missionary Gutka Sahib)

Q: Do the last words have "e" (ੇ) sound or "ai" (ੈ) sound?





As we are on the topic, also in Anand Sahib (Pauree 18):


ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਸਹਜੁ ਉਪਜੈ ਇਹੁ ਸਹਸਾ ਇਵ ਜਾਇ ॥੧੮॥
kehai naanak gur parsaadee sahaj oopjai eihu sahsaa ev jaae.
(Singh Brothers & Sikh Missionary Gutka Sahib, as well in printed Saroop of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji)


OR

ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਸਹਜੁ ਉਪਜੈ ਇਹ ਸਹਸਾ ਇਵ ਜਾਇ ॥੧੮॥
kehai naanak gur parsaadee sahaj oopjai eih sahsaa ev jaae.
(Damdami Taksaal Gutka Sahib)

Q: Is there an "aunkar" ("u" sound) under the "haahaa" or not?



Bhul Chuk Maaf.

Daas,
Manvir Singh

 



Re: Dasam Bani/ Nitnem : Differences in Gutke... Help with Uchaaran
Posted by: Manvir Singh Khalsa (IP Logged)
Date: July 08, 2008 10:42AM

Forgot to add another pangtee from Sri Jaap Sahib:


ਕੋਟਿ ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਇੰਦ੍ਰਾਣਿ ਸਾਹੁ ਸਾਹਾਣਿ ਗਣਿਜੈ ॥
kott indr indraaN shaahu shaahaaN gaNijjai.
(Singh Brothers & Sikh Missionary Gutka Sahib, also www.SriDasam.org)

OR

ਕੋਟਿ ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਇੰਦ੍ਰਾਣਿ ਸਾਹਿ ਸਾਹਾਣਿ ਗਣਿਜੈ ॥
kott indr indraaN saahi shaahaaN gaNijjai.
(Damdami Taksaal Gutka Sahib)

Q: Is it "saahi" or "shaahu" (sihaaree or aunkar)?


Note: When Daas went to Italy, I met a Kathaavachik who had Santhiyaa from Jeevan-wale Guriskh from Mehta Chownk (Damdami Taksaal). He said that the Pangtee should be read as "SAAHI SAAHAAN" because the "arth" (meanings) is connected to Indr (the devtaa). I can't fully remember what Bhai Sahib was saying because it was late at night and it was vichaar in passing whilst listening to Paatth.

 



Re: Dasam Bani/ Nitnem : Differences in Gutke... Help with Uchaaran
Posted by: gsingh (IP Logged)
Date: July 08, 2008 11:07AM

I have been told that the gutkae printed at bhindr kalaan (Giani Mohan Singh) are the most shud. in this gutka tarae is spelled with a laav, hee is with a biharee,4th pouree of swayay is with dulaavan, pouree 18 of anand sahib is with hahaa mukta, and it is saahi in jaap sahib. Gutkae printed by chattar singh jeevan singh cannot be trusted as singhs have tol me they hae seen 4 different versions, with 4 different spellings in the dasam granth pothis they have been printing, and sadly taksal mehta gutkae have been changing quite a bit over the years...the older gutkae, however, have idntical spellings to the bhindr kalan gutkae.

 



Re: Dasam Bani/ Nitnem : Differences in Gutke... Help with Uchaaran
Posted by: kulbir singh (IP Logged)
Date: July 08, 2008 12:35PM

Quote:
22nd PAUREE OF BENTI CHAUPAI SAHIB:
ਰੱਛਾ ਹੋਇ ਤਾਹਿ ਸਭ ਕਾਲਾ ॥ ਦੁਸ਼ਟ ਅਰਿਸ਼ਟ ਟਰੇ ਤਤਕਾਲਾ ॥੩੯੮॥
rachha hoe taahi sabh kaalaa. dusht aristt tare tatkaalaa.
(Singh Brothers & Sikh Missionary Gutka Sahib, also www.SriDasam.org)

OR

ਰੱਛਾ ਹੋਇ ਤਾਹਿ ਸਭ ਕਾਲਾ ॥ ਦੁਸ਼ਟ ਅਰਿਸ਼ਟ ਟਰੈ ਤਤਕਾਲਾ ॥੩੯੮॥
rachha hoe taahi sabh kaalaa. dusht aristt tarai tatkaalaa.
(Damdami Taksaal Gutka Sahib)

Q: Is tare or tarai?

It seems like the ਟਰੇ paath with nasal sound on the laav would be the correct one.






Quote:
THIRD PAUREE OF SVAIYYE:

ਗੁੰਜਤ ਗੂੜ ਗਜਾਨ ਕੇ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਹਿੰਸਤ ਹੈਂ ਹਯਰਾਜ ਹਜਾਰੇ ॥
gunjat gooR gajaan ke sundar hinsat hai hayraaj hajaare.
(Singh Brothers Gutka Sahib & www.SriDasam.org)

OR

ਗੁੰਜਤ ਗੂੜ ਗਜਾਨ ਕੇ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਹਿੰਸਤ ਹੀਂ ਹਯਰਾਜ ਹਜਾਰੇ ॥
gunjat gooR gajaan ke sundar hinsat hee hayraaj hajaare.
(Damdami Taksaal Gutka Sahib)

Q: Is it "hee" (ਹੀਂ) or "hai" (ਹੈਂ)[b]


ਹੈਂ with nasal sound seems correct. If we accept the second paath i.e. the one with ਹੀਂ , the correct meanings would not be derived. The meanings according to my meagre understanding are ਹਯਰਾਜ ਦਾ ਮਤਲਬ ਹੈ ਘੋੜੇ ਅਤੇ ਹਿੰਸਤ ਦਾ ਮਤਲਬ ਹੈ ਹਿਣਕਣਾ। ਇਸ ਅਧਪੰਕਤੀ ਦਾ ਅਰਥ ਹੈ ਹਜ਼ਾਰਾਂ ਹੀ ਘੋੜੇ (ਜਿਸ ਦੇ ਤਬੇਲਿਆਂ ਵਿਚ) ਹਿਣਕਦੇ ਹੈਨ।


Quote:
As we are on the topic, also in Anand Sahib (Pauree 18):

ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਸਹਜੁ ਉਪਜੈ ਇਹੁ ਸਹਸਾ ਇਵ ਜਾਇ ॥੧੮॥
kehai naanak gur parsaadee sahaj oopjai eihu sahsaa ev jaae.
(Singh Brothers & Sikh Missionary Gutka Sahib, as well in printed Saroop of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji)

OR

ਕਹੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਸਹਜੁ ਉਪਜੈ ਇਹ ਸਹਸਾ ਇਵ ਜਾਇ ॥੧੮॥
kehai naanak gur parsaadee sahaj oopjai eih sahsaa ev jaae.
(Damdami Taksaal Gutka Sahib)

Q: Is there an "aunkar" ("u" sound) under the "haahaa" or not?

I have not checked spellings in different saroops but as per viyakaran, the paath should be ਇਹੁ ਸਹਸਾ. ਇਹੁ is padnaavee-visheshan of singular noun ਸਹਸਾ and since ਸਹਸਾ is a singular noun, the visheshan ਇਹੁ should have an aunkad in the end.

Baani is Agam Agaadh Bodh. May Guru Sahib forgive our mistakes while doing vichaar of Gurbani.

Daas,
Kulbir Singh

 



Re: Dasam Bani/ Nitnem : Differences in Gutke... Help with Uchaaran
Posted by: Manvir Singh Khalsa (IP Logged)
Date: July 08, 2008 02:11PM

I used to have a Nitnem Steek by Professor Sahib Singh, however someone else wished to have, so I can't check that.

On the other hand I have Bhai Joginder Singh Talwara Ji's Nitnem Steek.

I checked that and found the following:

1) In Jaap it is written "SAAHU" (meaning "King of Kings").

2) It is written "HINSAT HAI" (with bindi, so naval sound) in Svaiyye.

3) There is one laav ("e" sound) at the end of each word in 4th Pauree of Svaiyye.

4) In Chaupai Sahib it is written "tare" (one laav - with bindi, so nasal sound).

5) In Anand Sahib it written in Gutka Sahib as "eihu" (aunkar under haahaa).


I assume that Bhai Joginder Singh Talwara Ji was using SGPC published material, and will be similar to Professor Sahib Singh.



In regards to Anand Sahib, Daas was fortunate enough to meet a learned and respectable Damdami Taksaal student from Birmingham who does seva of Santhiyaa. Bhai Sahib said that many of the old Saroops of Guru Granth Sahib Ji have "eih" (haahaa muktaa, i.e. without aunkar) HOWEVER in recent times Giani Joginder Singh Vedanti has changed many spellings by adding aunkars and sihaarees at different places according to what he think is correct. This has led to a variation of spellings.

Bhai Sahib said that respect Gursikhs from Damdami Taksaal approached Giani Joginder Singh Ji Vedanti about this issue. Giani Ji blamed Giani Mohan Singh (I think that is the correct name) - a Head Granthi of Sri Darbaar Sahib. And then when Giani Mohan Singh (?) was approached he told the Singhs that Vedanti had changed it. So it's something to do with SGPC standardising spellings and sihaarees, aunkars etc in printed Saroops of Guru Granth Sahib Ji.


As this was a while ago I didn't get the opportunity to ask Bhai Sahib about the Dasam Bani spelling variations question.


Bhul Chuk Maaf.

 



Re: Dasam Bani/ Nitnem : Differences in Gutke... Help with Uchaaran
Posted by: Atma Singh (IP Logged)
Date: July 09, 2008 01:30AM

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ

ਵੀਰ ਕੁਲਬੀਰ ਸਿੰਘ ਜੀ,

should ਇਹੁ always be pronounced with aunkharD

should it never be pronounced with the aunkharD

should it sometimes be pronounced with aunkharD and if so when and why - pls give examples.

dhanvaad.

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ

ਦਾਸ,
ਆਤਮਾ ਸਿੰਘ

 





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