ਪ੍ਰਥਮਰਹਿਤਯਹਿਜਾਨਖੰਡੇਕੀਪਾਹੁਲਛਕੇ॥ ਸੋਈਸਿੰਘਪ੍ਰਧਾਨਅਵਰਨਪਾਹੁਲਜੋਲਏ॥

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WHY GURMUKHI ??
Posted by: Jarnail Singh "Arshi" Gyani (IP Logged)
Date: May 26, 2008 05:57AM

Countless times i have been asked..whats so great about GURMUKHI ? Isnt the Translated Gurbani the SAME THING ??

Lets go back to the time of Guru Nanank Jis aagman. In 1469 there were a myriad of well established, well developed, and very popular languages...there was Persian, Farsee, Arabic, Sanskrit, Hindi, Marathi, Gujrati, Bengali, Tamil, Kannada, etc etc etc.
When Akal Purakh sent Guru nanak Ji Sahib on His Divine Mission..He must have made it clear that the Divine Mission of Guru nanak Ji Sahib is such a New revolutionary GYAN...that any of the already used languages/scripts cannot fit that. Thus to spread His New Mission..Guru nanak Ji Sahib set about scripting GHARRING the brand new GURMUKHI SCRIPT. Granted that soem remnanats of an older script similar to Gurmukhi already existed and Sheikh Farid Ji wrote his sloks in that but the entire RESHAPING/REMOULDING of the 35 akharee Gurmukhi rests squarely on Guru nanak Ji Sahibs Broad shoulders. Guur Nanak Ji sahib then began to use this nw script to pen down His Gurbani..as it came from AKAL PURAKH.
This is another aspect we always forget or overlook - the ORIGINAL LAREEDAAR GURBANI scripted in SGGS is the TRUE "Shape" of the Gurbani that AKAL PURAKH SENT DOWN. AAslee cheez hee eh hai.
2. Paddchedd..is one LAYER DOWN the road AWAY from the TRUE GURU. Instead of holding on to the Guurs FINGER..we seek to hold the finger of the Padd chedder..
3. Translation..is another SECOND layer down the road AWAY from the TRUE GURU...here we follow the direction of the translator/teekakar..as to what Guru Ji MEANS...

3 Just take a worldly example.... the Works of Shakespeare. Everybody knows his works are in the ORIGINAL....and also abridged versions, stories, simple english verisons etc..even some in Punjabi ( I had a Punjabi version of Raja Lear in my Gyani Exam in the 1970's...a very simpliefied story/tale...)
Now who in his right mind will say that ALL these are SAME ?? What Shakespeare wrote ORIGINALLY is the pristine pure form of his thoughts in his english. If a fool like em insists that having read Raja Lear in Punjabi drama is the same as reading Original King Lear...i will be laughed out on my ear...BUT we expect that answer form those who support ENGLISH HUKMNAMAS...from the Translated version of SGGS..they INSIST it is all the SAME ???? REALLY ?? who says ?? The person who listens to the English Hukamnama is on the same wavelength as me readign the punjabi verison of Raja Lear in simplified Punjabi... I will get the gist of the story/tale of lear and his daughters etc etc BUT...then again...a cheap imitation is always visible...
There is a reason why the Ilahi Gurbani is in Gurmukhi Script..time is short guys..get into the act and get cracking....its just 35 akhars..and Guru Ji will do the rest..300 saal GURU de NAAL must be made truly worthwhile...

Regards to all

jrnYl isMG igAwnI "ArSI"





 



Re: WHY GURMUKHI ??
Posted by: kulbir singh (IP Logged)
Date: May 26, 2008 08:16AM

Great thougths Gyani jee. The soul of Gurbani is lost when translating. If one wants to have benefit of Gurbani, it must be read in its original form i.e. in Gurmukhi form.

It has been rightfully mentioned by Gyani jee that Siri Guru jee had at their disposal so many languages to write Dhur kee Baani but chose to create a new script to record Gurbani. We must respect this. Some people say that many others will benefit if we transliterate or translate Gurbani but the question is that if this was a good idea, then why did our Guru Sahibaan not do this?

Kulbir Singh

 



Re: WHY GURMUKHI ??
Posted by: Harcharan Singh (IP Logged)
Date: May 26, 2008 09:27AM

I agree that tranlsations will always be second rate - and loose much of the ras and gyaan, but translations are key to spreading Gurbani to each corner of this Earth, there must be more effort to produce quaity translations in all languages to share Guru Ji's divine truth with all insaaniyat. This is what the original Nirmalali and Udasi sampradas did spreading Gurbani all regions of Hindustan and even explaining existing teachings through Gurmat.

There is a difference between language and script. Gurmukhi is script and the seperate issue of language is being overlapped above.

Guru Sahiban used many languages to reveal parm-atmas instruction - sach is not restricted to language.

Historically Sahanskriti was prevalent as the sacred language of Hindustan, whereby by those who related God-thought (Brahamans) did so (and were versed in) Sahanskriti.

The Bhakti and Sufi traditions opposed this, in particular the holy shudra Bhagats such as Bhagat Kabir Ji, Ravidaas Ji, Naamdev Ji...

The shudra Bhagats were not allowed to learn the holy languages or holy faiths as you had to be of the right jaat to do so. According to Kabir Panthis, Bhagat Ji was ridiculed as 'ni-gur' by the Brahaman sangats which is when he sought Swami Ramanand Ji to be his sansaari Guru.

It was through the courage of these bhagats who opposed the Indic discriminatory traditions that the common languages which the poor spoke became prevalent as the new language of God revelation - and influenced other bhagats/sant to adopt a similar style in the form of sant basha.

Punjabi was considered a language for the uneducated/poor where as farsi Later Urdu) was considered the language of the elite and cultured by the then sarkaar.

Guru Nanak Dev ji turned this rvaaj on its head, and only sargun svaroop of Akaal Purkh could commit such an impossible act.

But Aad Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is without bias - we still see all the common and elite bol of the medieval period appearing in Maharaj - showing that language is simply a tool - and the message there in is that which has been divinely revealed (in many languages).

The Gurmkhi script as Gyani Ji says does however play an important role in perfect santhia (of all of the many languages used in Gurbani) which leads to the correct identification and understanding of the words used. As pointed out above - Gurmukhi was also an act of God - in affect taking away the power of the sarkaar and brahman.

 



Re: WHY GURMUKHI ??
Posted by: Anonymous User (IP Logged)
Date: June 01, 2008 05:23PM

hi

i think some of the descriptions given here seem kind of bizarre and apocryphal.

i mean heres some things to understand:

1. there wasnt a schooling system like today. so there was no common language.
2. no such thing as hindi or udru, these were recent centuries inventions. (i.e. this builds on point 1 above)
3. there was not such widely available media like today. think about it literacy probably wouldnt have been that common. right?
4. Guru Nanak was an account/merchant by trade in his youth. They (indian accountants) had their own script developed at that time. i cant remember its name. it seems to me that the letters of Gurmukhi script was based on that.
5. are we sure that one of the Gurus created this script? I mean it covers all the panjabi sounds, none of the hindi etc sounds. the panjabi language appears to predate the apearance of the script.
6. i guess they could of used the pahlavi script, but they didnt.
7. same with devanagri script. they could of but didnt use it.
8. building on 7. and 8. none of those scripts convey the unique panjabi sounds and consonants properly.

i dont know just some thoughts

 



Re: WHY GURMUKHI ??
Posted by: Bijla Singh (IP Logged)
Date: June 15, 2008 09:04PM

navjot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> hi
>
> i think some of the descriptions given here seem
> kind of bizarre and apocryphal. >
> i mean heres some things to understand:
>
> 1. there wasnt a schooling system like today. so
> there was no common language.
> 2. no such thing as hindi or udru, these were
> recent centuries inventions. (i.e. this builds on
> point 1 above)
> 3. there was not such widely available media like
> today. think about it literacy probably wouldnt
> have been that common. right?
> 4. Guru Nanak was an account/merchant by trade in
> his youth. They (indian accountants) had their
> own script developed at that time. i cant
> remember its name. it seems to me that the
> letters of Gurmukhi script was based on that.
> 5. are we sure that one of the Gurus created this
> script? I mean it covers all the panjabi sounds,
> none of the hindi etc sounds. the panjabi
> language appears to predate the apearance of the
> script.
> 6. i guess they could of used the pahlavi script,
> but they didnt.
> 7. same with devanagri script. they could of but
> didnt use it.
> 8. building on 7. and 8. none of those scripts
> convey the unique panjabi sounds and consonants
> properly.
>
> i dont know just some thoughts


1) But schooling system did exist where language was taught. Hindu temples and mosques had integrated schools where religious scriptures were taught. Common language was Persian in which all official records were kept. This continued in Maratha, Sikh and early British Empire.

2) Urdu is heavily based on Persian and Arabic. Hindi comes from Brahmi, the mother of most Indian languages including Punjabi.

4) Lande script was used by traders but Guru Sahib were not in trade or any business. Lande is very poor and is written in letters only i.e. no kanna, sihari etc are used.

5) Many alphabets existed before but Gurmukhi in its current form was shaped by Guru Sahib. Further, Gurbani grammar is unique and distinct. Punjabi does not use the same grammatical rules.

6 and 7) Gurmukhi is way better than Devnagri, Persian and other scripts. It has advantages that other scripts do not. Gurmukhi does not need to borrow anything from other scripts. It can use its own alphabets and make sounds. It has no half letters in sense of Devnagri. Persian is written so bogusly that it is easy to be misinterpreted. Besides, neither Devnagri nor Persian could represent Punjabi sounds whereas Gurmukhi has sounds of both languages. Gurmukhi uses fewer alphabets which is advantageous. It is easy to learn i.e. has no silent words. It is square shaped which makes it easier to be printed.

Only Gurmukhi can represent Gurbani and Punjabi the best. Prior to Gurmukhi, scripts like Mahajani, Lande, Takri etc did not have all of the 35 alphabets and are sisters of Gurmukhi. In other words, Gurmukhi is not derived from these scripts but is similar.

 



Re: WHY GURMUKHI ??
Posted by: Anonymous User (IP Logged)
Date: June 16, 2008 05:36AM

hi thats really interesting information thanks for the response

1) was persian really the common language? your average person on the road couldnt read it could they? it was more like a court/law language. even in maharajs time he himself was illiterate so couldnt read pehlavi (persian). did all castes receive eduation or just brahmans and khatris and those musllims training to be qazis and mullahs?

4) Werent the Gurus all khatri so likely to have been involved in so kind of trade? Was Guru Nanak a trader until he was 30 or such? Lande suited its prupose, it was a functional language so i dont think we should call it poor.

5) well 'Modern' panjabi does not have the same grammatical rules.

6 and 7) sir let us be abit objective if thats ok? i also like and admire gurmukhi script but their is no need to put down other scripts merely for the sake of self-veneration. also half-letters is not a bad thing and is why devanagri is suited to writting sanskrit

"Gurmukhi does not need to borrow anything from other scripts." i agree but the fact is that letters like 'shasha' (sassa with pairee bindi) 'zazza' are modern inventions, those sounds didnt have exact representation in the original script. though personally i believe that these sounds were not part of punjabi originally.

also saying "Gurmukhi is not derived from these scripts but is similar" seems kind of odd. are you saying they were all dervied from brahmi or that Gurmukhi script was 'revealed'.


Only Gurmukhi can represent Gurbani and Punjabi the best. Prior to Gurmukhi, scripts like etc did not have all of the 35 alphabets and are sisters of Gurmukhi. In other words,

 



Re: WHY GURMUKHI ??
Posted by: Bijla Singh (IP Logged)
Date: June 16, 2008 09:24AM

1) Persian was the official language of the Mughal Empire. It was also used by Marathas and Sikhs. Urdu was most spoken in the educated circles. Muslims at large received education at Mosques. They learned Arabic and Persian. Lower caste Hindus did not receive much education as they were banned by the Brahmins. Sanskrit was limited to upper castes like Brahmins. Common language varied from place to place. Punjabi was the spoken language in Punjab. It had different dialects like it does today.

4) To my knowledge none of the Guru Sahib were officially in the trade business. Their goal was to establish and spread Sikhi. Many of the cities founded by Guru Sahib became trade centers but Guru Sahib Himself was not in that business. Guru Sahib started Udasis in His 30s but He was preaching Sikhi prior to that also. Bani started coming to Him at a very early age. Lande is poor in the sense that it cannot represent Punjabi language and is outside the circle of common people.

5) Languages change over time. It is part of the evolution but my point was that Gurbani viyakaran is not as same as Punjabi. Both are different.

6,7) Fact is a fact and pointing out shortcomings of other scripts is not insulting them. Cursive language and half letters are harder to print. Persian is also mixed with Arabic which results in misinterpretation even by scholars. Devnagri may be best in writing Sanskrit or Hindi but for Punjabi it is an obtuse script. My point was that Punjabi is best represented by Gurmukhi.

Indian scripts including Urdu are derived from Brahmi. Sisters of Punjabi are Lande, Takri etc that have the same origin. About 25 alphabets in some form can be found in Takri. Only Gurmukhi has 35 with consonants.

 



Re: WHY GURMUKHI ??
Posted by: Anonymous User (IP Logged)
Date: June 17, 2008 08:20AM

Gurfateh
some info about lande script.

Landi in voabulary used by north Indian lower caste stands for 'short'.

Das thinks as per Nehrus discovery of India,that Harrapa vally civilisation of native Indian,who were great intrade etc. were called Panis(Pan means coin) by invading Aryas.As per Nehru they later became Baniyas(which das thinks could be wrong as Baniya is from Vanik(one engaged in commerce).

but racial feature of Baniyas often in north India are neaerer to Drvidian(austriloids) then say Aryan(Noredics).Likewise mercantile commun ity of Punjab ,Sindh and Gujrat etc,has lower level of Khatris called Aroras/kirads.Who also have dravidian features,In fact in many such Areas there are few or on Baniyas so perhaps they(kirads) could be sanskiritisation( or upwards movement) of Baniyas as Khatris.

what das is aware of his Hindu Mothers Grand father,who was from Pakistan that they have been using Landa,in thier Bahis(account book).

Das just wanted to put some info about the script,which has commonality with Gujrati a bit(Urha seems to be common).

so das thinks that our script is nearer to native Indian script then to say Urbanised ie Nagari script,but then das thinks otherwise as Nagari is considered born out of Damru(a small drum in one hand) of Shiva.

This Shiva and mother goddess are all the more dravidian gods(thier idols are found in Indus valley) and are worshipped by South Indians,tribals,out castes etc.In Indus Valley we have found phallus/linga also being worshipped.Same term is often refered to landa. and that also in Dravidian 'uncivilised' vocbulary as civilised(arya) has sanskrit(cultured) Language.

Das only wanted to prove that Gurmukhi is nearer to Drvidian cultrue then say Aryan one.Bhai Chandra Singh may excuse but RSS has also accepted Bhagwan Balmiki a Supach(dog eater as per manu samriti) as emblam beaer of native culture.We could say that one gruop considered self as civilised,who has span outside India.But our Gurus did respect the culture of those Anaryas in India also.And the anarya of outside India(say Arabs).

This was a revolt to misinterpetation of Holy Vedas(Arya v/s Anarayas) and Holy Kateb(Arab v/s Ajam).Akal Bless.

 



Re: WHY GURMUKHI ??
Posted by: Anonymous User (IP Logged)
Date: June 19, 2008 05:41AM

dear bijla singh its nice to meet a sikh who doesnt grovel after persian. i have never understood that attitude.

 



Re: WHY GURMUKHI ??
Posted by: Bijla Singh (IP Logged)
Date: July 16, 2008 12:58PM

According to "Gurmukhi Lipi: Janam Tay Vikas" by G.B. Singh, Gurmukhi alphabets existed before the coming of Guru Sahib. Gurmukhi had almost died but Guru Angad Dev Ji revived it and preached it which is why the common misconception that Guru Sahib invented it. Sikhs were the first ones to use these alphabets so it became to be known as "Gurmukhi" or language of the Gurmukhs. Prior to Mughal invasions, Sanskrit in Punjab was written using Gurmukhi alphabets and first numerals were written using this lipi. Devnagri of today is very modern. One can read this book and Piara Singh Padam's book on Gurmukhi. Both are filled with wealth of information.

 





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