While doing katha in the original way may not be necassary in AKJ samagams but there should be time set aside to do positive discussions on aspects of Gurmat including Naam, Gurbani, Rehit and history. When so many Gursikhs get together at samagams there should be some time set aside to provide Gurmat guidance the youth and new comers in Sikhi.

All this manmat like wearing makeup, tying Rang-Barangiyaan Dastara, wearing non-Baana attire while doing kirtan or even attending kirtan samagams, eating without regard to Gurmat Bibek etc has crept in Jatha because of lack of Parchar,. It has become a taboo to say anything to anyone. The whole setting has become too formal. During times of Bhai Sahib, Jatha was a small Jatha and everyone knew everyone and Gursikhs used to help and guide each other. If a Gursikh was seen going downwards, other Gursikhs used to warn him or her and get them to Chardi Kala again. Today trying telling someone about keeping rehit or improving amritvela. You will have to endure multiple accusations. ਸੋ ਭਾਈ ਕਿਸੇ ਨੂੰ ਕੁਝ ਵੀ ਕਹਿਣ ਦਾ ਸਮਾਂ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ। ਜੇ ਕੋਈ ਗਾਹਕ ਮਿਲੇ ਤਾਂ ਬੇਸ਼ਕ ਮਨ ਦੀ ਗੱਲ ਕਹਿ ਦੇਵੋ ਪਰ ਹੋਰਨਾਂ ਵਲੋਂ ਤਾਂ ਸਦਾ ਡਰਾਨੇ ਹੀ ਰਹੀਏ।

Kulbir Singh

its a very sad situation!...when you try helping someone in this way, they feel it is like an attack against them, and you are being patronising, esp when discussing matters like av and bleaching etc... when actually you feel this should be standard reht that everyone keeps, and when they are lacking in it, it is your duty as a gursikh to help back onto the path...i think that in these times it is essential to have these important reht's, such as told at amrit sanchaars by 5 pyaareah (as Atma Singh ji said)

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ

khalsa jeeo,

someone who wishes to have katha going on during keertan i.e. katha interrupting keertan, really hasn't understood the whole purpose of keertan which is to refine the aatmaa/soul, to increase it's bairaag, to increase it's thirst for Guroo/Naam/Gurmat/Gursikh Sangat etc. therefore, keertan is akath dee katha. it tells us about vaheguroo and how to meet vaheguroo. there is only one type of true katha in gurmat - naam/gurbaaNee - these both originate from maharaaj jee and are not some sort of 'interpretation' unlike the 'katha' that gursikhs give when sharing an opinion.

the root issue is that keertanees seem to think they can 'better explain' maharaaj jee's gurbaaNee if they do katha or jump from one shabad to the next...as a result, whether intentionally or un-intentionally, they are placing their bibek-budhee higher than maharaaj jee.

there is a reason that gursikh keertanees/sangat of the past could sing/listen to one panktee/one shabad for hours on end without feeling 'bored'...it is because their jeev was the dust at the feet of that shabad and at that moment it knows only that shabad...

the mind is not wandering...the seed of naam is being fully-watered with amrit-keertan. all the while, these gursikhs are japping naam with swaasaa(n), listening to the keertan which is powering their abhyaas more and when they feel like it, they are singing to guroo sahib, whether audibly or inaudibly....

and then the keertanee jumps to another shabad without finishing the complete/pooran updesh of the first shabad...or even worse, starts doing 'katha'...or breaks the rhythm by doing vaheguroo dhunee or saying 'dhan siree guroo nanak dev jee'. dhunee is not bad, neither is saying that our guroo saahibaa(n) are dhan...but it is disrespectful to maharaaj jee, and to those premee gursikhs who are slaves to that gurshabad, to intentionally interrupt a gurshabad - no matter what you interrupt it with.

why? because only vaheguroo knows the truly worthy and pooran way that vaheguroo is to be praised/His akath katha is to be done. only vaheguroo is able to praise/do katha of vaheguroo perfectly. vaheguroo has done this through gurbaaNee...so we should stick 100% to gurbaaNee.

amongst the jatha, and according to the evidence i have read/heard, apparently sdo aka bhai mohinder singh started this 'katha and dhunee' style amongst the jatha. it is ironic, given what he started, that this person has today lost all his bibek-budhee - may maharaaj jee do kirpa upon him and all of us.

yes, he may have inspired many people, which is ultimately maharaaj jee's bhana, but maryada and satkaar comes before all else if we are to win maharaaj jee's love..instead of quoting how much sangat someone may have 'won' through their style, we should look at the collective state of any particular group/jatha in order to assess the state it is in. can anyone who has peshed and done sangat via jatha say that the the jatha of today is in the same chardee kalaa as it was in the past as understood through bhai sahib's books, other accounts re: the jatha of yester-years?

the above is not intended to offend - it is intended to humbly promote critical thinking towards trying to preserve tat gurmat keertan maryada.

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ

ਦਾਸ,
ਆਤਮਾ ਸਿੰਘ

"the above is not intended to offend - it is intended to humbly promote critical thinking towards trying to preserve tat gurmat keertan maryada."

I am glad you feel this way. And just to further clarify, "tat gurmat keertan maryada" is as per Guru Sahibans crystal clear instructions in both the title and the body of each shabd, as mentioned in the 'ghar' thread.

Dhanvaad.

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ

veer harcharan singh jee,

i like listening to raag keertan. like any keertan, i only really enjoy it when it seems to me the keertanee is truly at maharaaj jee's feet when singing it. i have heard lots of keertan, raag and non-raag alike, where sadly this isn't the case.

at this point in time, with my very limited knowledge, i feel raag is important however, i'm not currently of the opinion that only keertan done in raag is acceptable to maharaaj jee. i am open to the fact that this is most likely due to my proximity and acceptance of keertan maryada as practised by puraatan jatha singhs.

however, what i find strange is that some raag-proponents go as far as to say that certain shabads should only be sung at certain times as per their raag and not at any other time. i just can't swallow this because gurbaaNee is timeless, all-powerful and all-encompassing...and therefore not constrained to time.

if there can be no parvaan keertan without raag, what if one wishes to sing jap jee sahib or shabads which do not have raag instructions? does this mean we cannot sing them? or does this mean we can use any raag? but if raag is always so crucial, why did mahraaj jee not state a raag for every single shabad? therefore, i still have doubts about raag being of absolutely critical importance when it comes to parvaan keertan.

who knows...maybe this opinion may change and if it is maharaaj jee's khushee, then may they change this opinion as they see fit.

ps - in the 'ghar thread', i agree with ur response to khalsaspirit jee. that shabad should not be used re: disproving the importance of raag. the bhaav is clearly that any type of singing/instrumentation which is not attuned to vaheguroo's love i.e. the person is doing pakhaand, is not parvaan.

i look forward to having ur darshan, if u r based in the uk, whilst you are doing keertan. i hope i find the keertan emotionally and spiritually saturated.

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ

ਦਾਸ,
ਆਤਮਾ ਸਿੰਘ

"Those who have filth in them see filth in others."

"Those who have filth in them see filth in others."

Daljeet singh jee, how is that seeing filth in others. Those that keep their mouth shut, are ones that often don't care. If shaheed bhai fauja singh, sant jarnail singh, kept their mouths shut, there wouldn't be great shaheed singhs like babbar sukhdev singh and many others. How will encouraging someone to stop wearing makeup, jap naam, etc do any good for us, it will only do good for them, so its only done out of love.

How can someone jap naam, and yet still indulge themselves in maya. The two doesn't go together.

houmai naavai naal virodhh hai dhue n vasehi eik t(h)aae ||
Ego is opposed to the Name of the Lord; the two do not dwell in the same place.

houmai vich saevaa n hovee thaa man birathhaa jaae ||1||
In egotism, selfless service cannot be performed, and so the soul goes unfulfilled. ||1||

and

liv dhhaath dhue raah hai hukamee kaar kamaae ||
Loving attention to the Lord and attachment to Maya are the two separate ways; all act according to the Hukam of the Lord's Command.

and

maaeiaa mohi har chaethai naahee ||
Being in love with Maya, they do not think of the Lord.

Those that are near God, should help those that are going away from God and shouldn't just keep their mouth shut. By letting them wear makeup, its disrespect to Guru Gobind singh jee.

har ma(n)dhar har jeeo saajiaa maerae laal jeeo har this mehi rehiaa samaaeae raam ||
The Dear Lord has fashioned the body as the temple of the Lord, O my dear beloveds; the Lord continues to dwell there.

Guru Sahib jee has given us this human body which is the temple of God. Guru Sahib has told us how to keep this human body holy e.g. hair, dastaar, etc. People who are wearing makeup are destroying the temple.

Vahegurujikakhalsavahegurujikifateh

I think we can try this at the Annual AkhandKirtan Smagam being held here in Vancouver starting today. Please phone the parbandiks at 1-604-599-1605 The question is: is there a mayee da laal from the Jatha who can do Gurmat Katha now a days? If you know anyone who can, please feel free to e-mail me kirtan@ikirtan.com

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ

khalsa jeeo,

there need to be more bibeeaa(n) amongst the jatha and panth in general who are strong in their rehit i.e. keep gurmat bibek (i.e. keep sarbloh bibek, wear baana at all times etc,), do lots of naam/gurbaaNee abhiyaas and have a very strong general jeevan.

when such bibeeaa(n) do katha it will have an effect upon those listeners who have love for siree guroo sahib jee as maharaaj jee will Themself do kirpa on such bibeeaa(n) and will make their words spiritually powerful and impactive.

there is no point getting a bibee to speak who does not satisfy these above requirements. the jatha should definitely not let bibeeaa(n) do katha/talks if they bleach, wear make-up etc. that will simply speed-up the trend whereby bibeeaa(n) bleach and wear make-up. siree guroo sahib jee will not give Their full support to such people nor to their words.

to instruct people regarding Gurmat is a BIG THING. the jatha needs to be much more selective about who is blessed with such seva.

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ

ਦਾਸ,
ਆਤਮਾ ਸਿੰਘ

ਅੰਧਾਆਗੂਜੇਥੀਐਕਿਉਪਾਧਰੁਜਾਣੈ॥
ਆਪਿਮੁਸੈਮਤਿਹੋਛੀਐਕਿਉਰਾਹੁਪਛਾਣੈ॥
ਕਿਉਰਾਹਿਜਾਵੈਮਹਲੁਪਾਵੈਅੰਧਕੀਮਤਿਅੰਧਲੀ॥
ਵਿਣੁਨਾਮਹਰਿਕੇਕਛੁਨਸੂਝੈਅੰਧੁਬੂਡੌਧੰਧਲੀ॥
ਦਿਨੁਰਾਤਿਚਾਨਣੁਚਾਉਉਪਜੈਸਬਦੁਗੁਰਕਾਮਨਿਵਸੈ॥
ਕਰਜੋੜਿਗੁਰਪਹਿਕਰਿਬਿਨੰਤੀਰਾਹੁਪਾਧਰੁਗੁਰੁਦਸੈ॥੬॥

Guru Piayario Jios,

The "lipstick" idea in the Gurbani quoted earlier - paan suparee and beerrees etc is because in Guru Jis Period, the RED COLOUR of Lips (and mouth insides) came from the Chewing of Paan.Betel Nuts etc. In modern times the same effect is produced by Lip Stick which is nothing except artificial colour applied to enhance the Lips to make them sensual and stand out. So while it has been correctly said by many posters that beerree is Cigarette (Bhaiyah type of rolled up tobacco leaf commonly used by the poor labour class)..the RED COLOUR is the reason paan is chewed...

All Jewellery is banned as per SRM...no making ear holes, nose piercing etc. Now days this fad has gone so far as to have tongue studs..ear studs all over the ear..as well as rings and studs all over the body..totally weird places are also used..so we are all on a slippery slope here...KHALSA SOEE JO NIT KAREH JAANG..we have to Fight this..it spoils the Harimandir..the Body that The Creator RESIDES IN...it will take a lot of guts...