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amrit sanchars-1699 to 1708
Posted by: Harinder Singh (IP Logged)
Date: April 03, 2008 02:02AM

Waheguru jee ka khalsa Waheguru jee kee fateh

How were the amrit sanchars done from 1699 to 1708 ?
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee Maharaaj got gurgaddi in 1708 whereas khande baate da amrit started in 1699 ??

Thanks

 



Re: amrit sanchars-1699 to 1708
Posted by: Harcharan Singh (IP Logged)
Date: April 03, 2008 06:52AM

This should be interesting.

I would request contributors to provide historical evidence.

Budda Daal have always conducted Amrit Sanchaars with both Sri Dasam Granth Sahib and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji - thus representing the complete sources of the 3 Dasam banis and the 2 Ad-Granth banis that are recited during the preparation of the amrit.

Before 1708, Guru Sahib was present at 'many' Sanchaars himself, thus representing the complete form of all Gurbani.

 



Re: amrit sanchars-1699 to 1708
Posted by: NiranjanSingh (IP Logged)
Date: April 03, 2008 09:02AM

Bhai Harcharan Singh Ji,

You posted that "I would request contributors to provide historical evidence."

Can you please provide "historical evidence" for the statement :

"Budda Daal have always conducted Amrit Sanchaars with both Sri Dasam Granth Sahib and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji"

Ideally this "historical evidence" should be from an third-party/independent source confirming this Maryada.

 



Re: amrit sanchars-1699 to 1708
Posted by: Atma Singh (IP Logged)
Date: April 03, 2008 10:47AM

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹ

veer harcharan singh jee,

all the available evidence points towards the fact that it was the nihangs who started the trend of doing parkaash of siree dasam granth sahib and not siree guru gobind singh jee.

despite what any of us may think about the way in which the 'complete form of all gurbanee' must be present during a(n)mrit sanchaars, the fact that this was not the viewpoint of dasmesh pita jee seems certain otherwise they would have advised that from 1708 during a(n)mrit sanchaars:

- parkaash must now be done of siree dasam granth sahib, alongside siree guroo granth sahib jee so that you have my 'complete form' during a(n)mrit sanchaars

- given that my 'complete form' cannot be 'present' without siree dasam granth sahib, this must be parkaash at all times alongside siree guroo granth sahib jee

in other words, regardless of a(n)mrit sanchaars, logically, dasmesh pita jee would have advised the khalsa to do parkaash of both at gurduarae sahibs etc. so that we could have their 'complete darshan'.

next, some will be saying that without sarbloh granth, we do not have 'the complete form' of siree guroo sahib jee present.

dasmesh pita jee's guidance is clear: do parkaash of siree guroo granth sahib jee - respect all other forms of gurbaaNee.

i personally am willing to change my views in the light of any reasonable evidence regarding the 'bi/tri-scripture parkaash' theory/practise but i have yet to see anything. the so-called sanaatanist webistes are very thin on the ground when it comes to offering non-partisan abd impartial evidence regarding this central sanaatan concept.

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ

ਦਾਸ,
ਆਤਮਾ ਸਿੰਘ

 



Re: amrit sanchars-1699 to 1708
Posted by: skaur (IP Logged)
Date: April 03, 2008 01:15PM

Ummm...didn't Guru Gobind Singh Sahib Ji say that when a Singhnee/Singh gets up amrit vela, bathes, does Naam Abhiyaas and Nitnem, has his a dastaar, she or he should stand in front of a mirror, and Dasam Paatshah will be present???

Was Dasam Paatshah not a part of the other 9 Guru Sahib Ji's??

Are you saying that He considered Himself to be higher than the other Guru Sahib Ji's?

 



Re: amrit sanchars-1699 to 1708
Posted by: sidhu.hcl (IP Logged)
Date: April 03, 2008 10:58PM

respected Skaur ji, firstly coming ur vaulable question on Sri Guru Govind Singh Ji ..whn a sikh wakes up at amritvela and takes bathe he shld recite vaheguru . whn he/she ties turban(dastar) and singh or singhnii stands infront of mirror he will get a guise of DHASHAM PATSHAH in himslf/herslf.

this statement is as correct as always. Guruji had written in khalsa umpa

"khalsa mera roop hai khas , khalsa main haun karu niwas,
khalsa mera mookh hai anga , khasla ke haun sadh sadh sanga
khasla mera isht suridh ,khalsa mera kahiyat birdh,
khalsa mera pash or pada khalsa mera mukh ahilada ,
khalsa mera mittar sakhai ,khalsa maat pitaa sukh dayii
khalsa meri soobha sheela , khalsa band sakha sad dhilla ,
khalsa meri jaat or pat , khalsa so(SAME) maa ki utmat
khalsa mera bhwan bhandra , khalsa kar mero satkara
khalsa mera sajjan parvara , khalsa mera karat udhara
khalsa mera pind puraan , khalsa meri jaan ki jaan
khalsa mera kare nirbaah , khalsa mera deh or saah
khalsa mera dhram or karm, khasla mera bhej nij marm
khalsa mera satguru pura , khalsa mera sajjan sura
umpa khalsa ke jaat na kahi ,jihwa ek paar nhi lahi
ses ratan saars ki budd , tadap na upma barnat sudd
ya main rach na mithya baakhi , paarbhram guru nanak saakhi
Room room je ras na pau , tadap khalsa jas tohe gau
houn khalse ko khalsa mero , ot prot sagar bhudhero

....... If u want i can write full khalsa umpa for u , here u can see guruji regarded his khalsa His guise.
I think u shld once go thru the whole khalsa umpa..

second question was Dhasham patshah sahib sri guru govind singh ji was a great Guru, soldier, poet, warrior, daani, shheeda se sartaj and many more. In my view he was such a down to earth personality and tht he never wanted himslf to be potraited as "parmatma" he asked his followers to revere VAHEGURU and indeed he was part of other 9 gurus.
Guruji had said
"jo humko parmeshwar uchree, te sab narak-kund main gaye hain,
main huun "param purak ka daasa", dekhan aayo jagat tamasha.

His vani is such polite and he considered himslf to be lower thn other 9 gurus of sikh. this is the only reason he wanted his vani not to be included in Sri Guru GRanth Sahib ji. He included vani of sants, bhagats of varoius faiths and more Sri Dhsham Granth ji was not named or formed by him. actually after joti jot samana of sri guru Govind singh ji mata sundri ji asked sikhs to shelve Guruji's vani in a granth so tht vani's written may not get destroyed(i dont know the exact to be used). This granth is later called as Sr Dhasham granth sahib.

there are some traitors of religion who in order to get publicity, and despite being crowned as TANKHAIYAA from the community and are excommunicated. they are making hullabaloo over Sri Dhasham granth sahib ji and sri guru govind singh ji who laid lives of himslf, his 4 sons , his father, his mother for humanity, to protect religions(HIndu), and to protect dhram, culture of india.
One urdu peot had written abt Dhasham patshah

" na kahu aab ki , na kahu tab ki,
agar na hote Guru Govind singh, Sunnat hoti sabki."

Some people regard his vani as harsh. i dont think any such this exists he is speaker of dhur ki bani and it can never be harsh. his vani if one had read is utlost polite and the sence of poetry is never meetable.

 



Re: amrit sanchars-1699 to 1708
Posted by: Harinder Singh (IP Logged)
Date: April 04, 2008 12:35AM

<< Budda Daal have always conducted Amrit Sanchaars with both Sri Dasam Granth Sahib and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji - thus representing the complete sources of the 3 Dasam banis and the 2 Ad-Granth banis that are recited during the preparation of the amrit. >>>

From what I know, Sri Dasam Granth Sahib is infact a collection of small granths/books written by Dashmesh Pita Jee. All these small books/granths were collected and put together to form one single big granth called Dasam Patshah da granth or Sri Dasam Granth and this happened after 1708 and I think it was Bhai Sahib Mani Singh Jee who did the seva of collecting the various banis of Dasam Patshah.
so, may be the budha dal of that time(not sure if the present day budha dal is the same budha dal of 1720,1730) MIGHT(not sure) have started the parkash of Sri Dasam Granth alongside Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee Maharaaj.

What I feel is that during an amrit sanchar,the SATGURU JYOT has to be present. At present, this jyot is present in a Granth Sahib making it Sri GURU Granth Sahib Jee Maharaaj Jee.And whereever this jyot is present, all gurbani is automatically present including the gurbani of Patshahi Dasviin.
From 1699-1708 this jyot was present in Dashmesh Pita Jee and it was only in Nanded,1708 that this jyot entered the Adi Granth making it Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee Maharaaj jee.
So basically, what I wish to know is that during 1699-1708, how were amrit sanchars organized at a place where Dasam Pita Jee were not physically present??

 



Re: amrit sanchars-1699 to 1708
Posted by: Harcharan Singh (IP Logged)
Date: April 04, 2008 03:54AM

Bhai sahib Niranjan Singh Ji

Thanks for your excellent observation.

As you are well aware this is an existant practice amongst the Budda Daal which is one of the (if not the oldest) oldest Sikh group. This is obviously the tradition that is preserved and practiced through oral history, so yes, it does fall short of hard 3rd party evidence, thanks for giving me the opportunity to clear that. It then all depends on ones faith in existing traditions amongst the oldest sampradas whether one accepts this or not.

Re the other comments, they are irrelevant, as the Sri Dasam Granth Sahib was compiled by Bhai Manni Singh after Guru Ji's ascension, so the concept of Guru Ji giving instruction on this subject is nonsensical, it was a tradition formed by Khalsa (if at all), who represent the Guru in the form of the Panth (as well as granth).

There are however some independant late 18th c references to the parkash of 2 Granths and maybe an amrit sanchaar, I will try and dig them out, Bhai Niranjan Singh, I am sure you are already aware of them.

Thanks.

 



Re: amrit sanchars-1699 to 1708
Posted by: Harinder Singh (IP Logged)
Date: April 04, 2008 05:23AM

<<< who represent the Guru in the form of the Panth (as well as granth). >>>>

Veer Harcharan Singh jeeeo. can u please explain this to me
panth(2 or more sikhs) is Guru ROOP
Punj singhs are guru ROOP.
But Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee Maharaaj Jee is GURU and not just guru ROOP.
Also the 5 singhs chosen in 1699 and called punj pyare, were they Guru or Guru roop ????
Dasam Patshah Himself took amrit from those punj pyare, so that shud make them Guru.
Punj singhs during present day amrit sanchars, are they Guru or Guru ROOP ????

 



Re: amrit sanchars-1699 to 1708
Posted by: Bundha (IP Logged)
Date: April 04, 2008 08:21AM

<<<< second question was Dhasham patshah sahib sri guru govind singh ji was a great Guru, soldier, poet, warrior, daani, shheeda se sartaj and many more. In my view he was such a down to earth personality and tht he never wanted himslf to be potraited as "parmatma" he asked his followers to revere VAHEGURU and indeed he was part of other 9 gurus. >>>>

BhaJi I agree with you, the jyote that was Guru Nanak Dev Ji emanated through all the Gurus and was one and the same.

However, Guru Sahib Ji also said “abh me apni katha bikhano…………… Dway tay ekh roop avey gehoe”
In the shabad Guru Ji quite clearly states that the two (AkaalPurkh and Guru Sahib Ji) became One. So there is no difference between Guru Sahib Ji and AkaalPurkh, so whether you revere Akaal or Guru it is the same thing.

<<<< His vani is such polite and he considered himslf to be lower thn other 9 gurus of sikh. this is the only reason he wanted his vani not to be included in Sri Guru GRanth Sahib ji. He included vani of sants, bhagats of varoius faiths. >>>>

It was Guru Arjun Dev Ji who included the bani of Sants/Bhagats/Bhatts in Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Guru sahib Ji included the bani of his father Guru Tegh Bahadhur Sahib Ji.

<<<< and more Sri Dhsham Granth ji was not named or formed by him. actually after joti jot samana of sri guru Govind singh ji mata sundri ji asked sikhs to shelve Guruji's vani in a granth so tht vani's written may not get destroyed(i dont know the exact to be used). This granth is later called as Sr Dhasham granth sahib. >>>>

Actually in the recent conference on Dasam Granth sahib Ji there is a saroop of Dasam Granth Ji with all the banis in it (except for Zafarnama) that existed at the time of Guru Sahib Ji. This is not hear-say, the saroop was present at the conference.


<<<< " na kahu aab ki , na kahu tab ki,
agar na hote Guru Govind singh, Sunnat hoti sabki."

Some people regard his vani as harsh. i dont think any such this exists he is speaker of dhur ki bani and it can never be harsh. his vani if one had read is utlost polite and the sence of poetry is never meetable. >>>>>

Bhaji , I do not think this is bani , it was written by a muslim who is admiring Guru Sahib Ji. He is saying if it was not for Guru Gobind Singh Ji everyone would have had sunnat.


If you read Guru Sahib Ji’s bani, yes it is polite, but it is direct and to the point without pulling any punches.

Guru Sahib Ji says - Mey naa Ganashay Pritham Manau, Kishan Bishan Kabho naa dhyiaoo. I do not believe in Ganash, or (Bhagwan) Krishan or Vishnu.

Guru Ji says – “ ……..Raam, Raheem, Puraan, Koran, aneke kehey par ekh naa manio……..” I do not believe in Raam (Chandar Ji), the Purans, Koran “

In Bachittar Natak Guru Sahib Ji admonishes all those who were sent by AkalPurkh but failed to propagate Him name. Guru Sahib Ji rejects those who smear ash on their bodies, rejects those who keep matted hair, rejects those who wear symbolic wooden earrings and rejects those who advocate circumcision. These points are hammered home in no uncertain terms.

 



Re: amrit sanchars-1699 to 1708
Posted by: sidhu.hcl (IP Logged)
Date: April 04, 2008 12:40PM

mere veer bundha ji im very agree tht vanis on sants, fakir, bhagats wre added to sacred sri guru granth sahib ji by Sri guru arjan dv ji.

but it was during rewriting of sri guru granth Sahib ji dasham patshah included their vani again and didnt included his vani this clearly shows that he was not carrying any ill intension. as question by bibiji

secondly i clearly had written veerji
"na kahu aab ki na kahu tab ki,
agar na hote guru govind singh sunnat hoti sabki " is written by one muslim sant. i didnt mentioned it to be part of Gurbani.

Thirdly guruji in these lines "my naa Ganashay Pritham Manau, Kishan Bishan Kabho naa dhyiaoo" tht he didnt meant tht he is against the existance of Bhrhma VISHNu and SHANKAR.

 



Re: amrit sanchars-1699 to 1708
Posted by: Harinder Singh (IP Logged)
Date: April 05, 2008 11:45PM

<<< Actually in the recent conference on Dasam Granth sahib Ji there is a saroop of Dasam Granth Ji with all the banis in it (except for Zafarnama) that existed at the time of Guru Sahib Ji. This is not hear-say, the saroop was present at the conference. >>>

very nice post veer jeeooo.
can u tell more about this. This is an extremely extremely information for me and if proved right(i hope its true), my views regarding birs and granths might start to change a bit.

 



Re: amrit sanchars-1699 to 1708
Posted by: kulbir singh (IP Logged)
Date: April 07, 2008 04:16PM

From 1699 to 1708 Gurgaddi was with Siri Guru Gobind Singh jee Maharaaj and it seems logical that he himself was present along with the Punj Pyare. It is also possible that he delegated his role to Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee at that time. This is an interesting question about which our history is quiet and for this reason the only thing we can do is speculate and guess.

Kulbir Singh

 



Re: amrit sanchars-1699 to 1708
Posted by: Harinder Singh (IP Logged)
Date: April 09, 2008 07:57AM

<< Budda Daal have always conducted Amrit Sanchaars with both Sri Dasam Granth Sahib and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji >>

i LOVE budha dal nihungs especially the ones who keep good rehit and are from punjabi origin, especially majha origin.
MAY AKAL PURAKH BLESS THEM.

 



Re: amrit sanchars-1699 to 1708
Posted by: Harcharan Singh (IP Logged)
Date: April 09, 2008 11:03AM

Veer Harinder Singh Ji,

I would say look into Bhai Randhir Singh Ji's veneration of Panj Pyare from this forums related AKJ aspect.

With regards to Guruship - Dasam Patshah says Guru takes 12 forms, the 11th and 12th being Guru Granth and Guru Panth.

This is backed up by the revered Bhai Nand Lal Goya's words:


*Rehatnama Bhai Nand Lal

(Prashan-uttar Attributed to Nand Lal)

Nand Lal speaks:

Doha
'You say that we should behold your presence, O Master. Tell me where we are to find you.' (5)

the Guru speaks:

Doha

'Listen attentively, Nand (Lal). I am manifested in Three ways : the formless or invisible (nirgun), the material or visible (sargun), and the divine Word (gur-shabad). This I shall explain to you. (6)

Chaupai

'The first of these transcends all that is material . It is the neti neti of the Vedas, the spirit which dwells in every heart as light permeates the water held in a vessel.' (7)
'The second is the sacred scripture. This you must accept as part of me , treating its letters as the hairs of my body , This truly is so,' 8
'Sikhs who wish to see the Guru will do so when they come to the Granth. He who is wise will bathe at dawn and then will walk thrice around (the sacred Granth). (9)

Dohara

Come with reverence and sit in my presence. Humbly bow and hear the words of the Guru Granth.

Chaupai

Hear the Word with devout affection for the Guru. Hear the Guru's Word of wisdom and read it that others may also hear.
The person who wishes to converse with me should read the granth and reflect on what it says. (10)
The person who wishes to hear my words should devoutly hear and reflect on the Granth. Acknowledge the Granth as my visible presence , rejecting the notion that it is other than me. (11)
The third form is my Sikh, that Sikh who day and night is immersed in the words of sacred scripture (gurabani). The Sikh who loves and trusts the Word of the Guru is an ever-present manifestation of the Guru, (12)
Such a Sikh is the one who hears the Guru's words of wisdom and reads them so that others may hear. Attentively he reads both Japuji and Jap, visiting places sanctified by the Gurus (guradavaran) and strictly avoiding adulterous liaisons. (13)
The Gursikh who is faithful in service will find himself cleansed from all sense of self-dependence. He who is scrupulous in performing these obligations is the Sikh in whom I am made manifest. (14)

Dohara
Worthy is the Sikh who serves with devotion, expressing his obedience to me in the generous offerings, which he makes. (15)
Such is the service which I receive from a Gursikh. Hear me , Nand (Lal).
Giving himself he finds the deliverance which carries him to Paradise (baikunthe) (16)

Nand Lal speaks :

You have told me of three forms, Master: the invisible, the visble, and the Guru's Word . The invisible form we cannot see, and the visble is the obedient Sikh. (17)

Chaupai
How can we comprehend the infinity of your invisible form? The universe is your form, you whom we call Master , and your presence mystically pervades every heart . (How then can we perceive you ?) 18

The Guru Speaks :

You are a devout Sikh , Nand Lal . Hear this divine message which I impart to you. See the Guru as visible presence in his Sikhs and first you must serve me by diligently serving them (19)
Next you must serve me by singing the divine Word , accepting it as truly a sign . He who accepts the scriture as the (Guru's) Word shall come to an understanding of (his) infinite being . (20)
And so I conclude this homily , Brother. He who reads or hears it and pays careful heed to it will find himself the object of much admiration, his spirit mystically blended in Mine .
This message of comfort and joy was delivered on the ninth day of the waxing moon in the month of Maghar, S. 1752 (4 December 1695 CE ) . Let the Guru's praises be eveywhere sung declares Nand Lal . (22)

 





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