i have sokme questions, if kulbir singh or someone else cud helpo out with
gurbani talks about the yugs, and how raam, vishnu, etc were all vaheguru and then guru nanak dev je came in kalyug
first question is do yugas actually mean that humans have been one erarth for billions of yrs, and in reality were ntot evolving and the stuff in hindu history actually happened?
and were raam, vishnu actually vaheguru as well, and then y wud dasam granth banee be so agasint worshipping raam
is it because of nirgun and sargun
and was raam same as guru nanak dev je
the main thing im talking about is from bhai gurdas jes vaara, where vaheguru manatar is explained
if somene cud shed some light on this

Vishnu is not the same as Vaheguru.

hINDU RELIgion is one of ancient religion of the world. Hindus exist even before Muhhmedd born or Crist Born. Hindu word came froM the River "Sindhu"

This Sub continent was having 7 rivers merging into Sindh river. whn Early people from iran came hre (after aryans) In their language their was no word being pronounced as "S" thy instead prounce it "H". One traveller wrote abt the continent and he claimed the place as Sapt Sindhu which was later pronounced as Hapt-Hindu and this way this HINDU name came into existance.

Hindu religion is very vast religion and thy worship almost everything from cowdung to rocks to penis to trees to animals to air to rain to stars to water (everything) coz in reality premative man was afraid of accepting any new chnage and thus thy formed 33 crore god of theirs

But their wre some people latr came tht did Bhakti and founded the existance of supreme power GOD. In order to tell the local people tht what they are doing thy modified their findings into Mythlogical Stories to make thm easy to understd and thus thy had taken several Myth characters like RAM, VISHNU, SHIV etc.

The 4 Ved of Hindus talk abt the findings of these dHRAM pANDITS. later Hindu religion got corrupted bcoz of several factors like caste system, like WHinerism (DHONG) andhvishwas, rather thn finding REAL GOD hindus started diong reverence of every thing and thy get distracted from the path.

Guruji In gurbani had clearly told :
Hindu anna.. turku Kana .. Giani dowa nalo seana ...

In order to tell Hindus Tht how God can be achieved Guruji had given refrences of Raam and Vishnu and Bhrma Guruji had clearly said:

Bhram maheswar bishan sachipati ant fase jam paas parenge..
jai nar sri pati k pars hai pag te nar na fir deh dharengee..

If thres anything more u would like to know i will heartly welcome ur query ...

If vishnu and raam are vaheguru, then I am vaheguru and u are vaheguru, basically everything is vaheguru, even maya which is sitting at the feet of vaheguru is vaheguru roop. I hope u are understanding what my aatma(not my brain) is trying to say, haha.
But reality is that vajood/existence of Vaheguru jee is different from existence of any other entity.(aapenai aap sajeeo). Vaheguru created Himself.(aapenai rachiyoo nauuu). Than He created His Name. And it was after this that He created nature, 5 tatt, brahma, vishnu etc.. etc..(endless).

<<and were raam, vishnu actually vaheguru as well, and then y wud dasam granth banee be so agasint worshipping raam >>

Raam vishnu, brahama are not Vaheguru, they were created by Vaheguru(thats what I have tried to explain above)
Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Jee's bani is TRUTH, its not against/with anybody. Brahma/ vishnu etc get defeated by Maya. Even Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee Maharaaj Jee tells us in Bani Sri Sukhmani Sahib Jee(brahamgyani ko khojhe mahesur). It means that Shiv is trying to find a Brahamgyani.
Satguru jee has used the word insect for Krishan and Raam in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib Jee. Krishan and Raam were given lots of powers by Vaheguru Jee but they misused them, made mistakes and as a result got defeated by Sri Kaal Jee.
WHAT A PLAY!
Tudh jevadd tun hain parbrahm Nanak sarnayee ||
HAR JAISA PURAKH NA LABYEE

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹ

veer chandra singh jee,

gurbaaNee must be understood within the context of gurbaaNee. if you are trying to say that Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are 'as great, exactly the same as and equal' to vaheguroo then you are mistaken. perhaps you were not saying this - it is hard to tell because you have just quoted a panktee and not shared your understanding of it.

let's look at the panktee you have quoted, with the pad-ched used:

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸ ਇਕ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਆਪੇ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਾਰੀ

guroo sahib is teaching that these 'gods' are actually one form i.e. ਇਕ ਮੂਰਤਿ - they are all manifestations of vaheguroo and in themselves, are actually quite insignificant. they exist via the one vaheguroo and hence are completely powerless if it were not for vaheguroo's shaktee acting through them - vaheguroo is the ਕਰਤਾ who does the ਕਾਰੀ; not them.

therefore, they are mere puppets like the rest of us. in this manner they are the same as the rest of the created universe which is the very manifestation of sargun vaheguroo.

as individual entities, we learn from elsewhere in gurbaaNee the following regarding ALL gods:

ਕੋਟਿਕੋਟਿਤੇਤੀਸਧਿਆਵਹਿਤਾਕਾਅੰਤੁਨਪਾਵਹਿਪਾਰੇ ॥
- kott kott thaethees dhhiaavehi thaa kaa a(n)th n paavehi paarae ||
- Millions, three hundred thirty millions of gods meditate on Him, but they cannot find His end or limitation.

ਹਿਰਦੈਕਾਮਕਾਮਨੀਮਾਗਹਿਰਿਧਿਮਾਗਹਿਹਾਥੁਪਸਾਰੇ ॥੨॥
- hiradhai kaam kaamanee maagehi ridhh maagehi haathh pasaarae ||2||
- With sexual urges in their hearts, they beg for beautiful women; stretching out their hands, they beg for riches. ||2||
[www.sikhitothemax.com]

can vaheguroo be referred to as a beggar, begging according to sexual urges and greed for wealth? of course not. by contemplating the panktee you have given in the context of pankteeaa(n) such as the one given above, we come to understand the following:

- all gods are created by vaheguroo.
- all gods have shaktee only through vaheguroo.
- gods beg for similar things as do humans. their requests can be very fickle and very human-like i.e. spiritual powers, wealth, lust etc.

therefore to conclude, gods can never be equal to vaheguroo according to gurmat. gods are as much the same as vaheguroo as humans are the same as vaheguroo. to suggest this is not the case is completely in opposition to gurmat as proved above.

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ

ਦਾਸ,
ਆਤਮਾ ਸਿੰਘ

so sidhu thinks its mythology, used to prove points?
this cud make sence
kulbir singh, wa do u think?

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first question is do yugas actually mean that humans have been one erarth for billions of yrs, and in reality were ntot evolving and the stuff in hindu history actually happened?
-------------

Yes, humans have been here for long time. I am not sure what Hindu history in particular you are referring to but stuff that’s mentioned in Gurbani happened for sure.

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and were raam, vishnu actually vaheguru as well, and then y wud dasam granth banee be so agasint worshipping raam
is it because of nirgun and sargun
and was raam same as guru nanak dev je
--------

The Gurmat stand, as per my understanding ,is that Vishnu, Brahma, Shiva, Indra etc do exist but have been created by Vaheguru. They have powers and responsibilities that they carry out. A Gursikh acknowledges the existence of these Devtas but does not worship them as per hukam of Guru Sahib. A Sikh worship only Vaheguru through the Shabad of Satguru.

Kulbir Singh

"he Gurmat stand, as per my understanding ,is that Vishnu, Brahma, Shiva, Indra etc do exist but have been created by Vaheguru. They have powers and responsibilities that they carry out. A Gursikh acknowledges the existence of these Devtas but does not worship them as per hukam of Guru Sahib. A Sikh worship only Vaheguru through the Shabad of Satguru."

Well said Kulbir Singh Jee. But you stand, which is self contained, is totally different from the one taken by Atma singh where he is more interested in denigrating Hindu Gods rather than worshiping Waheguru. Had he not found those superficial abrahamic similarities in Sri gurugranth he would have rejected Sikhi iself and probably would have converted to one of those binary cults of middle east.

From ur Question on yugs i spended ample time on reading articles abt it . and i came to know that:

One yug has age of 5000 yrs only. and four yugs tht existed wre namely
satyug, treta yug, dwapar yug and now kalyug

Hindu gods are mythlogical characters and Dhram Pandits Used each on thm in every yug like
Bhrma in satyug, raam in TReta yug, krishan in dwaper yug.

In kalyug only several religions apppeared. Three major in Middle east named Jews, christens, and muslims. and other two big religions appeared in india wre Buddism and Jainism. so kalyug can be taken as the time when most development had taken place in findind of real god.

Sikhs are just 400+ yr old.

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹ

veer chandra singh jee,

you wrote: "Agreed, but only if Waheguru is not just another God. If you envisage him as another God with name and form then he will no longer be different from those 33 million Gods begging form women and riches".

there are many ways in which vaheguroo is different to these gods. mool mantar is the best palce to start understanding this.

vaheguroo is beyond descriptive names. gurmantar given by guroo sahib (ਨਾਮੁ) is not a desriptive name. most siksh are not even awar eof this esince they do not connect directly with gurbaaNee. for instance one major difference is that unlike these descriptive names, it is the very presence of vaheguroo throughout all of the visible, invisible creation and beyond.

you wrote: "What do you learn?. You mean distorted meanings of Sri Gurugranth. Here are some samples see it for yourself".

i will be the first to agree with you regarding dodgy translations - sikhs need to learn gurmukhee. even with my limited knowledge and gurbaaNee vocabulary, it is obvious that alot of translations do not translate the spirit or tone of gurbaaNee very well.

however, pls tell me in detail how the translation of the panktee i gave is incorrect.

ਕੋਟਿਕੋਟਿਤੇਤੀਸਧਿਆਵਹਿਤਾਕਾਅੰਤੁਨਪਾਵਹਿਪਾਰੇ ॥
- Millions, three hundred thirty millions of gods meditate on Him, but they cannot find His end or limitation.

ਹਿਰਦੈਕਾਮਕਾਮਨੀਮਾਗਹਿਰਿਧਿਮਾਗਹਿਹਾਥੁਪਸਾਰੇ ॥੨॥
- With sexual urges in their hearts, they beg for beautiful women; stretching out their hands, they beg for riches. ||2||

my limited undarstanding is that this particular translation is correct.

you wrote: "Here is the problem you have to solve. If you view Sri granth as a one whole then you can't say that panktis by a particular Guru or bhagat is more important then other. And if you don't view as one whole then you can't compare the pankti by saguni Guru or bhagat to those by a Nirguni one"

please give an example regarding your point above and we can discuss.

you wrote: "Teja Singh Bhasauria tried to expunge Banis by Namdev from Sri Gurugranth declaring it to be Hindu in nature".

not only this, he tried to expunge all of 'bhagat baaNee' and was excommunicated from the panth and rightly so. it is because of a lack of understanding or spiritual afflcition that people are unable to assimilate the concepts, vocabulary, metaphors and historical references within gurbaaNee. any gursikh with shardaa in their guroo knows this - we ar imperfect and gurbaanee is perfect.

you wrote: "But you [kulbir singh] stand, which is self contained, is totally different from the one taken by Atma singh where he is more interested in denigrating Hindu Gods rather than worshiping Waheguru".

please explain the differences between mine and veer kulbir singh's views.

also explain how i have denigrated the hindu gods; i have done no such thing. it seems to be the case that you do not believe that gods are prone to acting out of kaam, krodh,lobh, moh and ahankaar where as according to gurmat they often do so.

you wrote: "Had he [atma singh] not found those superficial abrahamic similarities in Sri gurugranth he would have rejected Sikhi iself and probably would have converted to one of those binary cults of middle east".

this last comment is actually very immature. as i have said before veer jee, you need to calm down. there are no 'superficial abrahamic similarities' within siree guroo granth sahib jee. if you wish to start a debate concerning this allegation of yours, please start a new thread.

although i am digressing, for the record, i believe that gurmat is far more advanced than the abrahamic schools of thoughs. in fact, gurmat does not even share the same goal as them. whilst they are concerned with achieveing heaven-based pleasures, gursikhs are thirsty to serve vaheguroo alone with no desire for any kind of material/spiritual rewards. this is what leads to milaap - prem bhagtee of naam.

generally speaking, indian/eastern based spiritual philosophies are definitely more advanced than abrahamic schools of thought. without acceptance of karam philosophy, the world's religious schools of thought grope in the dark and are easily debunked by atheists.

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ

ਦਾਸ,
ਆਤਮਾ ਸਿੰਘ