ਪ੍ਰਥਮਰਹਿਤਯਹਿਜਾਨਖੰਡੇਕੀਪਾਹੁਲਛਕੇ॥ ਸੋਈਸਿੰਘਪ੍ਰਧਾਨਅਵਰਨਪਾਹੁਲਜੋਲਏ॥

Akal Purakh Kee Rachha Hamnai, SarbLoh Dee Racchia Hamanai


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Ram Row: RSS excuses Sonia, targets 'Sikh PM'
Posted by: Mehtab Singh (IP Logged)
Date: September 15, 2007 05:04AM

[www.samachar.com]

New Delhi, September 15: The RSS has sought to blame Prime Minister Manmohan Singh directly for the controversial affidavit on Lord Ram and pointed to his Sikh faith and its sacred texts that contain numerous references to the revered figure.

An editorial in RSS mouthpiece Organiser alleged that Congress chief Sonia Gandhi would not be able to understand India and its 'identity Ram' because of her foreign and Catholic origin.

"Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, a confirmed religious Sikh, should have known better, for the holy Guru Granth Sahib, holy Gurbani of revered Guru Gobind Singh are known for their salutations to Sri Ram," the Sangh mouthpiece wrote.

"Sonia Gandhi will not know. She will never understand this country. No foreigner can fathom the place of Sri Ram in the lives of the people of this country. Sri Ram is the identity of India. But the UPA action was premeditated and calculated," it said.

The write-up also referred to Gandhi's Catholic origin as it accused the government of regarding Ram as a fiction.

It also found 'understandable' Shipping Minister T R Balu's rejection of demands to realign the Sethusamudram project because of his Dravida background.

"The over enthusiasm of T R Balu on the subject is understandable, for he belongs to a creed that always reveled in sympathising with the heroism of Ravana, the abductor of Mata Sita," the editorial said.

Earlier this year, the Akal Takht, Sikhism's highest temporal authority, took strong exception to an RSS statement posted on its Website that says Sikhs are part of the great Hindu Samaj.

 



Re: Ram Row: RSS excuses Sonia, targets 'Sikh PM'
Posted by: kulbir singh (IP Logged)
Date: September 17, 2007 04:19PM

While RSS is one extreme in making a statement like Gurbani making salutations to Siri Raam, Government of India too made a totally wrong statement by rejecting existence and history of Siri Rama. Gurbani recognizes the existence of both Siri Raam and Ravana, Kansa and Siri Krishna, Prahalada and Harnaksha (Hirnyakashap according to Hindus) etc.

There would be nothing wrong in the govt apologising to the public for hurting their religious feelings.

As for RSS's claim, I would request our Hindu brethren to please quote something from Gurbani that makes salutations to Siri Rama, the king of Ayudhya.

Kulbir Singh

 



Re: Ram Row: RSS excuses Sonia, targets 'Sikh PM'
Posted by: mandeep (IP Logged)
Date: September 17, 2007 10:59PM

does sikhism and guru granth sahib claim any of these hindu gods exsisted.

 



Re: Ram Row: RSS excuses Sonia, targets 'Sikh PM'
Posted by: kulbir singh (IP Logged)
Date: September 18, 2007 06:46AM

Yes according to Gurbani these avatars do exist but Sikhs don't worship them.

 



Re: Ram Row: RSS excuses Sonia, targets 'Sikh PM'
Posted by: Mehtab Singh (IP Logged)
Date: September 18, 2007 10:46AM

Vaaheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa Vaaheguro Jee Kee Fateh !!!!!

Bhai Kulbir Singh ji, das did a search on SikhiToTheMax for "raam chand" and found a number of shabads, 2 of which can be interpreted by people as "glorifying" Shri Ram Chander. Upon consulting Professor Sahib Singh jee's darpan, here is what was found.

1st shabad

Bhagat Naam Dev Ji in Raag Raamkalee on Ang 973

mnih n kIjY rosu jmih n dIjY dosu inrml inrbwx pdu cIin@ lIjY ]
manehi n keejai ros jamehi n dheejai dhos niramal nirabaan padh cheenih leejai ||
Do not harbor anger in your mind, or blame the Messenger of Death; instead, realize the immaculate state of Nirvaanaa.

jsrQ rwie ndu rwjw myrw rwm cMdu pRxvY nwmw qqu rsu AMimRqu pIjY ]4]4]
jasarathh raae na(n)dh raajaa maeraa raam cha(n)dh pranavai naamaa thath ras a(n)mrith peejai ||4||4||
My Sovereign Lord King is Raam Chandra, the Son of the King Dasrat'h; prays Naam Dayv, I drink in the Ambrosial Nectar. ||4||4||

As per Professor jee's translation, Bhagat Naamdev jee is claiming Naam Amrit to be his Raja Ram Chander, therefore implying that just as Hindus hold Shri Ram Chander with high esteem, Bhagat jee holds the same regard for Naam Amrit. Thus its Naam Amrit which Bhagat jee is glorifying here and not any avtaar.


2nd shabad

Guru Arjan Dev Ji in Raag Maaroo on Ang 1082

sRI rwmcMd ijsu rUpu n ryiKAw ]
sree raamacha(n)dh jis roop n raekhiaa ||
You are the Great Raam Chand, who has no form or feature.

bnvwlI ckpwix dris AnUipAw ]
banavaalee chakrapaan dharas anoopiaa ||
Adorned with flowers, holding the chakra in Your hand, Your form is incomparably beautiful.

shs nyqR mUriq hY shsw ieku dwqw sB hY mMgw ]4]
sehas naethr moorath hai sehasaa eik dhaathaa sabh hai ma(n)gaa ||4||
You have thousands of eyes, and thousands of forms. You alone are the Giver, and all are beggars of You. ||4||

As per Professor jee's translation, and I am pasting from darpan:

hy pRBU! qUM auh sRI rwmcMdr hYN ijs dw nwh koeI rUp hY nwh ryK [ qUM hI hYN bnvwlI qy
sudrSn-c`k-DwrI [ qUM by-imswl srUp vwlw hYN [ qyry hzwrW nyqr hn, qyrIAW hzwrW
mUrqIAW hn [ qUM hI iek`lw dwqw hYN, swrI dunIAw qYQoN mMgx vwlI hY [4[

(Please change font for reading in Gurmukhi)

From what I understand, Gurujee is glorifying Akaal Purkh, and is saying that hay Prabhu, You are Yourself Ram Chander. As per my 1 cent worth knowledge on Gurbani, a number of such references have been made to various avtars many times in Gurbani. But the way it should be understood is that we need to get one thing straight, and that is that Akaal Purkh is inside everyone. He is inside the avtars, He is inside every single one of you Gurmukh pyaare reading this message as well. But does that mean we should be worshiped? I think Gurujee is glorifying that Akaal Purkh who resides in everyone, including Shri Ram Chander. Further, Gurujee says "You are that Ram Chander who has no form or shape". Again, as per my minute understanding, we need to realize that the soul, the aatma is without form or shape. Whether it is the aatma of Shri Ram Chander, or any random person walking on the street. I remember Bhai Kulbir Singh ji stating this while discussion with Mr. Inder Ghagga as well, that aatma of everyone is the same one jyot of Waheguru. So probably Gurujee is glorifying that Akal Purkh who is the jyot residing inside Shri Ram Chander, which is the same jyot inside every one of us. Maybe just taking the literal interpretation of the words or translating them literally makes people think Gurujee is glorifying avtars.

I may have made several mistakes in understanding the above mentioned 2 shabads. May Gurujee and the sangat forgive this idiot's errors. I sincerely request Bhai Kulbir Singh ji, Bhai Balpreet Singh ji, Bhai Bijla Singh ji and other Guru pyaare who have a lot more gyaan than me to please correct me wherever I have gone wrong.

~ daas Mehtab Singh

 



Re: Ram Row: RSS excuses Sonia, targets 'Sikh PM'
Posted by: mandeep (IP Logged)
Date: September 18, 2007 10:52PM

so these hindu gods exsisted i find it hard to believe.

 



Re: Ram Row: RSS excuses Sonia, targets 'Sikh PM'
Posted by: Anonymous User (IP Logged)
Date: September 20, 2007 02:44PM

Bhai Kulbir Singh You said

"Yes according to Gurbani these avatars do exist but Sikhs don't worship them."

I am happy with that and will take it. Regarding your statement


"As for RSS's claim, I would request our Hindu brethren to please quote something from Gurbani that makes salutations to Siri Rama, the king of Ayudhya."

First i am not speaking on the behalf of RSS here. Secondly, following Bani although it is not salutation but it certainly doesn't diffrentiate between Ram, Krishna & Guru Nanak Dev Ji.

त्रेतै तै माणिओ रामु रघुवंसु कहाइओ ॥
In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty.
दुआपुरि क्रिसन मुरारि कंसु किरतारथु कीओ ॥
In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed Mur the demon and saved Kans.
कलिजुगि प्रमाणु नानक गुरु अंगदु अमरु कहाइओ ॥
In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das.

Also, i would like to here from you what this "YOU" stand for in above Banis?.

 



Re: Ram Row: RSS excuses Sonia, targets 'Sikh PM'
Posted by: kulbir singh (IP Logged)
Date: September 20, 2007 04:00PM

This is from svaiyaas of Bhatts. The Bhatt is addressing Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee here. O Guru Nanak, in Treta Yug, you enjoyed Raaj Yog through Siri Rama. In Duaapar Yug, through Siri Krishna you enjoyed Raaj Yog. (Through the avatar of Krishna Muraari), you freed up Kansa (from his evil life and evil works, by killing him) and gave Ugarsain the kingdom.

In Kalyug, you came out in open (Parmaan) and called yourself Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amardaas. Later in this savaiya, God declares that the kingdom of Guru Nanak is eternal (Siri Guru Raaj, Abichal Attal, Aad Purakh Furmaiyo).

In Gurmat, the role of Satguru is very important. Satguru is essentially Vaheguru himself. Vaheguru's own form called the Guru form has been established by Vaheguru himself. This is why Guru and Kartaar (God) are used interchangeably in Gurbani. Guru is not different from God but same. To deliver the world, Guru-form of Vaheguru has been working different ways, from the beginning. In previous yugs, Satguru worked through different avatars, who too were forms of Vaheguru himself but in Kalyug, the Guru-form came out in open, in form of 10 Guru Sahibaan. The word "Parmaan" is important in above quote.

Kulbir Singh

 





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