Waheguru ji ki khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Zindabad jio,

Quote "i personally do agree that dastaar show be worn by both genders"

ਬਾਈ ਜੀ ਆਹ ਗੱਲ ਜੇਕਰ ਤੁਸੀ ਮੰਨਦੇ ਫਿਰ ਤਾਂ ਰੋਲਾ ਕੋਈ ਨਹੀ ਰਹਿ ਜਾਦਾਂ ਆਹੀ ਗੱਲ ਤਾਂ ਊੱਪਰ ਸਾਰਿਆਂ ਨੇ ਕਹੀ ਹੈ। ਬਸ ਹੁਣ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਰੱਖਿਉ ਮੁੱਕਰਿਉ ਨਾ।

Guru Mehar Karay

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

to khalistan zindabad:

dont compare dastar to pyjami, they are two completely different things. the dastar is a fundemental part of sikhi and maharaj's roop, it is important to stop beadbi of the kesh, how can a chuni fulfill this role?

there are chardki kala bibia out there without keski and big up to them. we should not insult them like harinder singh said.
even before taking amrit a person can acheive spiritual experiences and powers, does that mean we dont need to take amrit (if these things were what we desired)
this is not a matter of how chardi kala a person is, no matter how chardi kala a person is they are still not higher than maharaj and maharaj's rehit. yes these people can have maharaj's kirpa on them n they are gursikhs, but we should not compromise on rehit for the up and coming generations.

bhai sahib randhir singh was brhmgiani and had mahrajs darshan but didnt give up sarbloh, because he had pyaar for maharajs rehit. he could have said forget it i dont need it anymore but he would rather starve than break the rehit.
(sorry for bhai shb story you probs think im typical akj who only ever talks about bhai sahib lol but its true you got to admit huna bhai sahib set an example for the whole panth)

there is plenty of evidence and logic behind keski being kakkar,

the arguement you make is based on soo many chardi kala sants n brahmgianis beleiving kes is kakkar, but thats exactly the kind of mentallity that pwalla is trying to expose in us.
its true we believe something because our sants believe it. akj does it aswel sometimes, we might believe something cos bhai randhir singh believed it. you are the same aswel veer ji, if sant gurbachan singh said something you would believe it straight away, as this is a sign of the pyaar you have for him. same with jatha and bhai randhir singh.

infact your arguement doesnt hold up in court veer ji cos bhai randhir singh was pooran brahmgiani aswel who had waheguru jis beautifull darshan. not any old random person can attain that. your arguement bout such and such sant said this therefore it must be true is not a strong arguement.

veer ji i can play your game aswel, you see bhai rama singh had partak darshan of guru gobind singh ji and maharaj told him to go to an amrit sanchar which gives keski as kakkar. now how do you like that? are you going to question bhai sahib?
my point is research things fully, look at the real evidence and logic behind something and then make your mind up on it. dont just believe it cos a sant said so. thats what pwalla is getting at.

people are afraid of change, they dont want to admit to things, cos they think "oh if i believe keski to be kakkar then im no longer a taksali or a nihang etc etc and my friends are going to disown me etc etc"

same with akj aswel, if it turned out raagmala is gurbani then alot of jatha singhs would stil not admit to it, and vice versa with taksalis. thats the chakkar we are stuck in, we do not have open mind to research and make our own opinions. face it we havent got the guts to go against what our mates think or what our jatha believes. we are all a bunch of baba followers, we have no capacity to think for ourselves.

there is evidence for keski being kakkar, rehitnamas, accounts etc. and quite frankly the logic behind it is just blatently looking us in the face but we dont want to aknowledge it.

but then agn the future is looking bright as alot of youth are wearing dastar anyway.

and yes veer ji you said it yourself you think both bibia and singhs should wear dastar, but the next step would be for jathe like taksal to keep strict maryada and say you can only take amrit if your wearing a dastar, you can believe kes to be kakkar if you want, but to mke it mandatory for every abhlaaki to wear keski would be a real positive step forward and a step which would be applauded by all "akjers".
however it will be hard as all people care about these days is how many people took amrit. jathe just think about numbers and they dont want to scare people away by making the rehit tougher. if taksal can get over this issue and implement this then there wont be a problem between the jathas and surely it will lead to maharajs happiness.

so khalistan zindabad jio pls go and talk to your elders and suggest this idea, dont be afraid of loosing face, if you think dastar is a must for both singhs n singhnia then pls talk to your jatha and try and make a step in the right direction for a change,

chull chuk maaf

OK ^^

LETS FOLLOW THE CROWD

khalistan zindabad wrote :

>>>>i would rather believe them then a jatha made up 60-70 yrs ago.

zindabad ji, here is a quick history lesson for you. It is based on actual referenced history rather than made-up history.

None of the groups you listed are very old, except the groups known as Budha Dal and Tarna Dal, and even those are by name only. They have no direct links to the original Budha Dal and Tarna Dal. Linking them to the original Dals is like linking the current day political group Dal Khalsa to Nawab Kapur Singh Ji's 'Dal Khalsa'. Study the state of Nihangs after Ranjit Singh's Raj when so-called Nihangs began to support Sanatan groups including the Mahants and you will understand why there is no linkage.


Also, Sursingh valeh are just part of the new Tarna Dal, they have no links to Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji, other than their Jathedar is genetically linked to Bhai Bidhi Chand Ji. Genetic links are no guarantee of maryada, see modern day Bedis and Sodhis for proof of that.


As far as the other groups you mentioned the oldest one mentioned might be the Hoti Mardan Dera (founded mid 19th century by Baba Karam Singh) but their current successors are doing very strange practices.

Both Taksals (both founded in mid 20th century by Giani Sundar Singh)
Nanaksar (founded first part of 20th century by Baba Nand Singh)
Rara Sahib (founded mid 20th century by Baba Isher Singh)
harkhovale (founded late in 20th century)

How can you call them 'old' and the other Jathas 'new' ? In fact almost all of these groups sprouted after the Singh Sabha Lehar.

One last point is that Sri Akal Takht Sahib used to require all Bibi to wear a Keski when Amrit Sanchar administered there in the frast part of the 20th century. Gurmukh Singh Musafir is the one who changed that Marayda afterwards.

Ok here is a very simple question to the only jatha in the panth who doesnt accept kes as a kakkar;

According to the views above the keski is to be considered a kakkar.

Now if an amrithdhari singh was to NOT wear one of his kakkars or just took it off, e.g. his kirpan then he would be considered a khrethi, a patit. His singhni with whom he lived and had children would also then be considered a kherethi. Both would then be expected to go pesh before the panj pyareh otherwise their bhagti, seva etc would not be parvaan to guru sahib.

So according to the keski is a kakkar crew, EVERY SINGLE singh who's singhni didnt wear a keski is a khrethi. Therefore everysingle singh whose singhni didnt wear a keski will definetly have to come back into charasi lakh joona because of his relationship with his wife who was a krethi for not wearing a keski.

So lets put this in perspective, of the thousands of singhs whose lives revolved around gurbani and who gave their lives since 1984, MOST of them will have been krethi's and will not have guru sahibs kirpa on them? All because their wives didnt wear a keski. Which if you follow logic means that both were krethi (unless of course they kept no sanjh but lets be realistic here).

Wah vei wah, what a panthic stance this is. Even the government of india doesnt disrespect our singhs as much as this! Chalo at least you people will be saved, I guess all the shaheed singhs (including bhai sukhdev singh babbar) will simply have to take janam again as their lives were not pavitar enough).

Sharam karo

Ps this is logic based on the views above. Personally i love the shaheed singhs and believe as amrithdhari gursikhs their lives were pooran. As their singhnia had their kes, they also had kirpa and remained true children of vaheguru.

So please, lets not beat around the bush. You say you want to question the shaheeds and the sants. Well lets hear you say it straight up. That if a singh who is married to a singhni (who doesnt wear a keski) then IF he keeps physical relations with her, this makes him a krethi.

I want to hear somebody openly say this please.

But still the change of this rule by Musafir caused much damage:

As Jathedar Shamsher Singh Ashok, a renowned Sikh historian, has said that wearing “keski” was a precondition even for women before they were baptized. Any woman who was not prepared to wear Keski was not baptized. This practice continued even after the end of the gurdwara movement. A relaxation was made only when Giani Gurmukh Singh Musafir became the Jathedar of Akal Takht.

The same mentallity that pwalla is trying to expose exists in all the above posts, bhai sahib (ur baba) said this so it must be right. The whole panth states something totally different, my point you state bhai randheer singh jee was a brahm giani, i state baba nand singh jee, sant isher singh jee rara sahib, sant isher singh jee nanaksar, sant jwala singh jee, sant karam singh jee, sant sunder singh jee, sant gurbachan singh jee. . .etc were brahm, gianis and agreed that kes is kakkar.

Taksal started by guru jee, ur rather funny in ur comments. . .ur indirectly calling all the jathedars liars as sant jarnail singh jee etc several times states that taksal is of guru jee, baba deep singh being the first jathedar.

anyway. my last post on this topic, so do as you please.

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Bhai Niranjan Singh jio,

Great lessen of history. Waheguru! learned a lot with this short flash back.
Anyway this Zindabadi guy accepted the Dastaar for both Genders. Now if he thinks he is a Singh of Guru then he should stick with his Bachan. Otherwise...

BACHAN KAR JO KHISK JAIY SOI NAR KACHA.

Guru Mehar Karay

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Khalsa jio,

We do not understand that reading the straight facts why Maha Parlo now? One should have a gut to digest the truth.
Quote "if a singh who is married to a singhni (who doesnt wear a keski) then IF he keeps physical relations with her, this makes him a krethi."
This is very straigt forward. IF HE/SHE WAS NOT TOLD THE REHAT OF KESKI BY PANJ PIYARE THEN ITS NOT MAKING HIM/HER TANKHAYIA or Krethi in your words".

Guru Mehar Karay

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Waheguroo ji ka khalsa, waheguroo ji ki fateh

Bhai jio thank you for your reply it shows you are interested and that’s a big step. You see bhai sahib I dont idolise Bhai Randhir Singh note: respect is a total different wave lenghth. If we had not idolised other gursikhs so much then there might not have been this big issue. Bhai Randhir Singh was a great gursikh, a great brother (this is the reason we call him bhai sahib and not SANT or BRAHMGIYANI) basically, according to his books written by him and not a second person we can see he had met waheguroo. He was one with waheguroo, but yet we don’t call him a SANT or BRAHMGIYANI. Why is that? It’s because we are still brothers doesn’t matter how big the avastha might be, we are still the sons of Guru Gobind Singh.

Same with Bhai Sahib Rama Singh, why is it that we don’t call him a Brahmgiyani or a Sant, basically it says in gurbani. Yet he had darshan of Guru Gobind Singh ji, stating that keski should be brought back in to the panth.

breham giaanee kee gath breham giaanee jaanai ||
Only the God-conscious being can know the state of the God-conscious being.

Now for the people that call bhai sahib or any other gurmukh a Brahmgiyani, it’s a no go area. Only one bramgiyani knows another, so please benti lets stop being fake brahmgiyanis and let us do our own abhiyaas and get past the basic stages, which is very hard itself.

breham giaanee kai gareebee samaahaa ||
The God-conscious being is steeped in humility.

Now Bhai Sahib and other Gurmukhs had so much gareebi, Bhai sahib Randhir Singh didn’t even want to be called baba or SANT. So please let’s not fall in to this situation, as gurmukhs they didn’t want this to happen. No gurmukh, doesn’t matter how high his avastha may be, won’t want to be higher than the sangat (something I see lacking in so called SANTS of today).Have you ever seen a picture where Bhai sahib Randhir Singh is sitting on a chair and the sangat is sitting on the floor. I wonder why?

Let’s now go to some points that have been made:

1) Now this is why we don’t get nowhere, it’s because we are so much in to his from our jatha so let’s not take their faults out. Well people believe that I am from the Akhand Keertani Jathat uk, now the points I raise is. Why isn’t Sarbloh rehit mandatory in amrit sanchars, why jatha resnbhis don’t do parkash of Lareedar Guru Granth sahib ji etc. Now does that make me less of a person. Bhai sahib where we are wrong we must put our hands up and say we are wrong!

2) Shaheed Bhai Sukhdev Singh Babbars singhni did wear a keski, if other singhni don’t choose to wear a keski then we must question this, because if we don’t then we are not gursikhs. We are fakes, because we are scared of telling the truth. We see the shaheed singhs singhnia as role models of the panth, if we see a dhil in a gurmukh then we get disheartened.

3) Now people here can argue that a bibi with no keski can have a way bigger avastha then one with a keski, now this is true in many cases, BUT it’s the principle, it’s the discipline that we need to take in to account. Rehit Piyari mujh ko, Sikh Piyare Nahi. What do we learn from this!
Tomorrow we will start saying that we don’t need to wake up at 2am in the morning, because I can wake up at 10 in the afternoon and jaap way more naam and do way more gurbani abhiyaas. Principle my friend, it keeps us disciplined.

4) Now please can someone tell me because I seem to be confused, where does in Guru Granth sahib ji mahraj does it state that, Kesh is a kakkar, Kirpan is a Kakkar, Kashera is a kakkar etc. If someone can then I’ll believe that keski is not a kakkar.

BUT mahraj does say:

mai gur mil ouch dhumaalarraa ||
I met with the Guru, and I have tied a tall, plumed turban.

dhue dhhothee basathr kapaatta(n) ||
upon your head is a turban, and you wear two loin cloths.

khoob thaeree pagaree meet(h)ae thaerae bol ||
How handsome is your turban! And how sweet is your speech.

naapaak paak kar hadhoor hadheesaa saabath soorath dhasathaar siraa ||12||
Purify what is impure, and let the Lord's Presence be your religious tradition. Let your total awareness be the turban on your head. ||12||

fareedhaa mai bholaavaa pag dhaa math mailee hoe jaae ||
Fareed, I was worried that my turban might become dirty.

So please do your own research on what you think the guru has told us. Note: Singhs and Singhni, gurbani is for all gursikhs not just males. Look at what the guru teaches us not what a gurmukh states in his katha, it’s his katha, his own knowledge. Only Gurbani is the true katha, it’s straight from what the gurus has to say. No third person, when a person does katha he is coming in the way, listen to true katha in gurbani (keertan) and then you will get a direct meaning through avastha and not from what a person thinks what it means.

Example, we see Bhai Maskeen ji as a great katha vajik, he has done too much research in to gurbani. Even he said that he don’t agree with some of the gurbani translation he did years ago on Jap Ji sahib. He said the further we get in our abhiyaas the more understanding we get from gurbani. The true katha is keertan, naam the veechara you do with guru sahib.

Look some gursikhs here want to prove a point, to show others (friends mainly) that we stand for this believe so that means I’m in this jathabandi, I used to do the same. I to would debate with others so that others can see that I’m with them and in there jatha. In this we will not get far in our sikhi, what we need to do is go forward, if we don’t agree with something then we must bring it forward.

Example, once a Singh was speaking to a bunch of us, he said that he believes that this gurbani thuk should be said this way, but he won’t because he learned from his jathabandi that it should be said another way. He said that he won’t change it because others from his jatha will think that he is making a new jathabandhi. Think about it.

Thank you

Benti- This is gurmat veechar we should not get angry at each other, love my brothers - this is the way we will learn and go forward.

Waheguroo ji ka khalsa, waheguroo ji ki fateh

khalistan zindabad, how can you accuse akj of blindly following bhai sahib randhir singh, when NEARLY ALL OF YOUR OPINIONS, are base on "sant baba ...... said this"
maha parlo, if being married to someone without 5 kakkars and having relationships with them makes you a kurehiti, and if being a kurehiti means that you have to come back, then logically, (according to you) anyone singh married to any bibi that didnt wear all 5 k's will have to come back. youve answered your own question.
although in my opinion i dont think these singhs will have to come back, as you said they did a lot of gurbani and naam abyaas and kept strict rehit, it was due to their karma that they did not know the correct kakaars. i think maharaaj would do kirpa on them.
btw sukhdev singhs singhni DID wear a dastaar

Both Taksals (both founded in mid 20th century by Giani Sundar Singh)

Can you prove this, because a lot of singhs say that taksal was started by guru gobind singh jee or Baba Deep Singh. This is just a educational question and truth is truth! I dont want to start any arguements!!

I just wanted to point out that AKJ is NOT -yes i said NOT- the only Jathhaa that believes in Keski as a Kakaar. There are MANY more. Just because they are not that well known, does not mean that they don't exist.

khalistan zindabad - if a singh went to a taksal amrit sanchaar with no dastaar and just open kesh, would taksal give him amrit, or would they tell him to go and cover his head before he comes back for Amrit?

Why are women allowed to take amrit with just a chuni and not men? If you are against keskhi, then you should allow men to take amrit with a chuni ?

Baba Gurbachan Singh ji Bhindrenvale stated that Sant Sunder Singh ji's teacher was Baba Bishen Singh ji Muralewale, exactly as the DDT claims. Baba Gurbachan Singh was student of Sant Sunder Singh, so there is no way he can be mistaken about this. The only other alternative is for the nindaks to call him a liar. most nindaks choose to not say this outright as it makes them look bad, so they use a roundabout technique and say that he was mistaken. But how can the very student of BAba Sunder Singh be mistaken about who Baba Sunder Singh's teacher was? he can't.

Also, Bhai Daya Singh Samprada has an unbroken lineage as well going back to Bhai Daya Singh ji. I've noticed that nobody tries to challenge that b/c they cannot. Sants of both lineage recognise each other and both sampradas (giani samprada which includes Bhai Mani Singh taksaal and DDT) as well as Bhai Daya Singh samprada have the same basic teachings about sikhi.

It's not a simple matter of ''believing in'' what a sant says - Raagmala as bani and Kes as kakkar and other teachings are the true teachings of sikhi as passed down through distinct lineages which go back to the Guru's time.

waheguroo ji ka khalsa, waheguroo ji ki fateh

Maha Parlo ji, firstly please talk with respect to other singhs.

Anyway, I don’t know where your post is going, but it’s very simple. It’s about intention, and knowledge. Now if the Singhs Panj Piyare say Kesh is a kakkar, then obviously the devotee is going to believe that.

Bhai sahib I don’t think you know what Krehit means and that is why you wrote such a post, about the shaheed singhs, no worries everyone is learning. A krehti is someone that receives amrit and goes against the word of the panj piyare, in this case. So please explain to me why those singhs are krehitis if they did not have the knowledge of Keski as being the kakkar. Nor is it our Gurus fault, because our guru gave us this beautiful kakkar, but it is our ManMat ways that think that we know more than the guru.

Maha Parlo. No one is saying anyone is Kurehiti. You yourself are justifying this through your posts. So it’s you who should actually think about what you write, and not the Keski is a kakkar crew, I like the name tho!

I know this is going a bit of topic but it’s a question that I’m not too sure about, and need some knowledge on. Why did Bhai Attur Singh Mustanna and gursikhs like Bhai Delal Singh not wear a kirpan?
Thank you
Waheguroo ji ka khalsa, waheguroo ji ki fateh

Xylitol Ji,

Your points are very off topic, but since you posted them, they require a response.

Please read Sikh history. Bhai Sant Singh (who the Taksal claims to be one their Jathedars), and his student Kavi Santokh Singh, and his student Giani Gian Singh, and Baba Bishan Singh Muralewale were all Nirmalas. This is 100% true according to history. Nirmala heads are often called Mahants. Baba Bishan Singh was also called Mahant Bishan Singh. Read 'Amrit Jiwan' Giani Sunder Singh Bhinderanwale and you will learn a lot about what I am talking about. Go ask the very family of Baba Bishan Singh their grandfather was a Nirmala or the Jathedar of the Taksal and then you will realize what the truth is.

Also remember Bhai Sant Singh passed on his teachings to Bhai Santokh Singh who then authored Suraj Parkash, in which he clearly wrote that Ragmala was not Bani. The same is for the next student Nirmala Giani Gian Singh who also stated that Ragmala was not Bani. I believe both Granths are used in the Taksal for Katha and parchar purposes.

Regarding the Bhai Daya Singh 'Samparda', that is another joke. Again, no historic proof of that at all. Why would Bhai Daya Singh Ji start his own shareekponna ? Did the other four other Piyarays do the same ? Give it some time I am sure their 'Sampardas' will pop-up to.

I believe the rapist Mann Singh Pehowa claims to be the current Jathedar of Bhai Daya Singh 'Samparda.'

Please give us a break Singho. This seena-baseeena Brahmgiani stuff is becoming a joke. Is Dhumma the current day Brahmgiani in this seena-baseeena lieange ?

As far as calling Baba Gurbachan Singh a liar, I don't think anyone is doing that except the Kala-Afghan crowd. I would say he was mis-informed like he was of several things he published in his books that have become the target of Kala-Afghanis and Ghagga supporters.

Yes, anyone can be mis-informed, only our Guru Sahib can not - He is Perfect.
Everyone else can have faults.

You guys make me laugh.

Everything is twisted and you dont actually say what you truely want to in your hearts do you?

Look its very simple, the whole keski kakkar debate has been on for years, most of the singhs would have known that there was some issue over the keski. And yet many would have continued to hold the belief that kes was the kakkar. So its not a lack of knowledge, its having the correct knowledge that kes is the kakkar.

and pwala, if i follow your last post that a krthei is one that goes against the word of the panj pyareh, well seeing as the rest of the panth's panj pyareh give kesh as a kakkar, any of these amrithdharis who then goes on to declare that kes isnt a kakkar but instead a keski is, is going directly against what his panj pyareh have told him/her. This would hence make them a krethi according to you yes? So in one way i could see your attempts as trying to make krethis of the rest of us who hold and believe kesh to be a kakkar, you wish for us to go agaisnt what our panj pyareh have told us? How wonderfully panthic and loving of you.



And im sorry but you cant say one thing and then try and sidestep it. Either keski is a kakkar or it isnt. Everyone keeps saying how rehat is most important to the guru, well then how can a singh say that he didnt know what the correct kakkars are? If a singh can take amrit and he and his singhni can pratice sikhi without having keski as a kakkar and can still get to vaheguru then what is all your fuss about? Either he can, or he cant.

You said we should question the actions of the shaheed singhs (how very humble of you to question them) chal lets question them then. If a shaheed singh firmly beleives that kes is his kakkar and his singhni does also, and they have a family together and do not beleive in keski as a kakkar, are they not following the rehat of guru sahib and as such, will they be destined to come back to joona? Let me hear you condemn thousands of wonderful gursikhs all because they didnt believe that a keski was a kakkar. Let me hear you say that because their wives also didnt believe in the keski as a kakkar that they were also not following guru sahibs rehat.

Once you've done all that, then tell me what yo have done for the panth and how much of your blood you have sacrificed, that you can stand here and say that those who dont accept keski as a kakkar are hunkari and too egotistic to accept thay they are wrong. Those that died hanging fighting beneath the nishaan sahibs in front of akal takhat were too hunkari or didnt have kirpa to know the correct kakkars. But you do.

Chal very good, bit of advice, first do something to match the kurbania of those who you wish to question, and then ask questions.

Best of luck.

ps Thank you khalsa spirit, so for the rest of the panth who listens and accepts their panj pyareh's bachan that kes it be considered as a kakkar, i would humbly request that the keski is a kakkar parchar be kept within the people who have taken amrit from the panj who say this. As if i came to you and tried to convince you that it was a kamarkasa and not a kirpan that was a kakkar, people would say that i was trying to break you from your rehat. So please respect the rehat followed by others.

best of luck again

Waheguru ji ki Khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Hanji Maha Parlo ji

"As if i came to you and tried to convince you that it was a kamarkasa and not a kirpan that was a kakkar, people would say that i was trying to break you from your rehat"
First of all maha parlo can do whatever she wants because when its time of parlo anything is possible. So yeah if you feel kamarkasa is KakKar than Kirpan so, be it because there are many other groups who do not think Kirpan is Kakkar and they do not wear it.

"So please respect the rehat followed by others".
Yes, thats what we were saying Keski is Kakkar so do not disrespect it.

Guru Mehar Karay

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Dearest brother Maha parlo,

I am glad some people make you laugh and not cry.....but here are some things you say but don't really understand what you say:



>, well seeing as the rest of the
> panth's panj pyareh give kesh as a kakkar, any of
> these amrithdharis who then goes on to declare
> that kes isnt a kakkar but instead a keski is, is
> going directly against what his panj pyareh have
> told him/her.

did you just say "give kesh as kakkar"?? please tell us how that is possible?? But ofcourse you are going to say its what they "say" and not what they "give".
Its not just about semantics but totally understanding what is given as a gift by the Guru and what the Guru says we can do or refrain from doing.



> This would hence make them a krethi
> according to you yes? So in one way i could see
> your attempts as trying to make krethis of the
> rest of us who hold and believe kesh to be a
> kakkar, you wish for us to go agaisnt what our
> panj pyareh have told us? How wonderfully panthic
> and loving of you.

Being misinformed does not make one a kurethi, but accepting anything without proper research encourages dhil in ourselves. Perhaps it is panthic and truly loving to ask you to question your panj pyareh on this issue. If the Panj Pyareh are rehitwale kamaai wale gursikhs this should be no problem. If they simply commit you without explaining why then i'm afraid you are getting a raw deal.


> And im sorry but you cant say one thing and then
> try and sidestep it. Either keski is a kakkar or
> it isnt. Everyone keeps saying how rehat is most
> important to the guru, well then how can a singh
> say that he didnt know what the correct kakkars
> are? If a singh can take amrit and he and his
> singhni can pratice sikhi without having keski as
> a kakkar and can still get to vaheguru then what
> is all your fuss about? Either he can, or he cant.


By the Kirpa of Guruji anyone can have darshan of Waheguruji however it is impossible to practise sikhi without accepting keski as a kakkar as you will only be fooling yourself. If you accept that Guruji is beant then any dhil can be forgiven. Remember one does not do these things to please Waheguru because Waheguru has NO NEEDS, waheguru is self sufficient!! We only wear the kakkars as they are special gifts from the Guru. Wearing the kakkars alone is no guarantee of getting to waheguru. In fact why are we trying so hard to get to Waheguru like He/She is some place else?? when in fact Waheguru is right here beside/within you and I and the shaheed singhs!!!


> You said we should question the actions of the
> shaheed singhs (how very humble of you to question
> them) chal lets question them then. If a shaheed
> singh firmly beleives that kes is his kakkar and
> his singhni does also, and they have a family
> together and do not beleive in keski as a kakkar,
> are they not following the rehat of guru sahib and
> as such, will they be destined to come back to
> joona? Let me hear you condemn thousands of
> wonderful gursikhs all because they didnt believe
> that a keski was a kakkar. Let me hear you say
> that because their wives also didnt believe in the
> keski as a kakkar that they were also not
> following guru sahibs rehat.

There are some souls that only come to this world to carry out acts in the propagation of righteousness. Worldliness is something they have to live within but are not part of it. And these souls choose to come over and over again to show us weak minded people a clear path in achieving Oneness with Waheguruji. One can only have a longing for Waheguru when one is apparently detatched from Waheguru hence the shaheed singhs visits to this earth. And yes anyone not wearing a keski is not following the Guru's rehat. It's a different thing if they believe its a kakkar or not. Kesh and keski go hand in hand always.


>
> Once you've done all that, then tell me what yo
> have done for the panth and how much of your blood
> you have sacrificed, that you can stand here and
> say that those who dont accept keski as a kakkar
> are hunkari and too egotistic to accept thay they
> are wrong.

One does not have to spill blood to speak the truth, the very fact that Pwalla speaks the truth ( very aptly and without harsh words) means he understands it from another perspective. Your truth is seen through your perspective. Ours is just an invitation to change your perspective, hence a paradigm shift.


> Chal very good, bit of advice, first do something
> to match the kurbania of those who you wish to
> question, and then ask questions.


Once again, with all due respect to the huge kurbania the singhs/singhnia in the panth have given it may not necessarily be their fault at not being told about the issue of keski as kakkar. We do not question them or their wisdom but bow down to the sacrifices they gave. At the same time we pray that those with an abundance of knowledge in this day and age similar to you will simply not just take for granted what they are told but dig deep within themselves to find the correct answers. If you look hard enough you will find.


> i would humbly request that the keski is a kakkar
> parchar be kept within the people who have taken
> amrit from the panj who say this. So please respect the rehat
> followed by others.


Again i am afraid it will be impossible to pigeon hole certain people simply because you do not agree with them. Many have found that it is always very hard to hide the truth and when it emerges it sometimes hurts. Don't hurt, accept others see it differently.


> best of luck again

bhul chuk maaf.

Satnam Singh.

ps. Pwalla, see you at the rhensabhai this weekend!!!