ARCHIVED FORUM: Gurdwara Tapoban Sahib
Malpractices of Sikhs
Posted by : !!
Date: 7/28/2004 7:07 am
Hi friends
It gives me pain to write this but then we the sikhs, have strayed from our path.
We (many learned sikh scholars included) have time and again been writing to prove the non-existance of the Gods like ram, krishna etc. There have been books written by sikh writers on this issue.
Please remember what Guru nanak had to say about the faith and the religion of others. gurur Nanak said
Jagat jalanda rakh lae apni kirpa dhaar
Jit duwarrey Oobrey titey leho ubaar
(At Whichever door the people burning from worldly issues find peace, let them have peace my Lord)
and we are going all-out to shatter the faith and beleifs of others, which is no good
posted by a sikh
Re: Malpractices of Sikhs
Posted by : Jarnail Singh Arshi Gyani
Date: 7/28/2004 7:20 am
waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh.
imho this tuk from gurbani is referring to others to keep their faith....gurbani si full of other shabads where the muslim is exhorted to beceome a good muslim, a hindu is advised how to be a good hindu...
NO OTHER holy book of Any other religion has this "advice for SIKHS...etc... instead Non-Beleivers are called KAFIRS and branded as sinners who will go to hell.... this i think is worse than "shattering" other peoples beleifs...
We have respectfully incorporated wriitngs of so called hindus, brahmins, shudars, muslims etc in our Guru Granth Sahib jee and bow to them just as respectfully as to our own Guru Ji." We need not apologise for our beleifs in our Gurbani.
Sikhi is not about CONVERTING others BY DISGRACING, back biting, dragging down....CONDEMNING other faiths.... we dont promote ourselves by condemning others... Sikhi proves itself the better religion by DRAWING a LONGER LINE......rather than SHORTENING/ERASING other's lines
but then again since we have our own GURU SAHIBAANS to show us the Right Way.....why shoudl we still continue to beleive in hindu gods. ( respect is dfferent from beleief ) I respect Prophet Mohammed, Jesus..BUT i DONT BELIEVE in them....should i ?? If so WHY ?? Am I contributing to "shatter" other peoples faiths if i refuse to beleive in "raam chander of ayodiyah as my god" ??? i fail to see the connection.
Dass jarnail singh
Re: Malpractices of Sikhs
Posted by : !!
Date: 7/28/2004 7:51 am
The Sikh gurus said - "Ham nahin Changey burra nahin koi "
But some of the sikhs of today have started propogating that other faiths/ their beliefs/their Worshipped ones(Gods like Raam/Krishna) etc are all falsity and myth and the Sikh panth is the only true faith, which is not something that would please the sikh gurus.
Friends lets try not to follow in the footsteps of the others who seem to be Sikhs but lets follow our guru, if we want to be true sikhs of guru nanak.
Re: Malpractices of Sikhs
Posted by : !!
Date: 7/28/2004 8:09 am
Jarnail singh ji
I liked when you wrote -- I respect Prophet Mohammed, Jesus..BUT i DONT BELIEVE in them....should i ?? If so WHY ?? Am I contributing to "shatter" other peoples faiths if i refuse to beleive in "raam chander of ayodiyah as my god" ??? i fail to see the connection.
Also I liked when you wrote -- We have respectfully incorporated wriitngs of so called hindus, brahmins, shudars, muslims etc in our Guru Granth Sahib jee and bow to them just as respectfully as to our own Guru Ji." We need not apologise for our beleifs in our Gurbani.
Just a small correction there, its not the magnanimity of us the sikhs, who incorporated "wriitngs of so called hindus, brahmins..... in our Guru Granth Sahib " but its guru Arjan dev ji the Sikh guru of those times who did so.
I have no argument against anyone in particular but i feel that of late --
We the sikhs, have started following the panth (our fellow gursikh brothers & sisters), but we have started ignoring the granth, our guru.
Re: Malpractices of Sikhs
Posted by : singh
Date: 7/28/2004 8:17 am
I'm pretty sure that the tuk "jit duaaray ubaray..." does not mean whichever, it means "that door" ie. one door. Darbaar Sahib is open on four sides with four doors, but the path is one. There is only one path to go to Sachkhand and that is to get Gurmat naam from Satguru Nanak.
The below is from www.whyichosesikhism.com:T
This question is based on the premise that the Semitic religions are true and come from God. Sikhism rejects this assumption.
SAARAY HEE DEKH KO DEKH RAHIYO MATT, KOYOO NAA DEKHIYAT PRANPATI KE||
SREE BHAGWAN KEE BHAAYE KIRPA HOON TEY EK RATEE BIN EK RATEE KE||
Guru Gobind Singh jee's baaNee in Sudha Savaiyay clearly state that he himself has looked at every religion (matt) of this world but has found none reaching Vaheguru Pranpatee. In the end he writes that since they lack the real love (ratee) for Vaheguru, they are not worth even a cent (rattee).
Is there any room for argument here. Guru Gobind Singh jee makes it clear to us that none of the religions of the world reach Vaheguru. He writes that only Gurmat reaches him.
Raam Rahim, Puran Koran, Anaek kahai matt, humm ek naa maniyo||
Simrit shaster bed sabhai, baho bhed kahai, hum ek naa janiyo||
Translation: Raam, Raheem, Puraans and Koran: there are many religions, but I do not accept any of them. Simritis, Shastras, Vedas, all say many different things, but I do not recognise any of them.
Does this not reject every holy book and religion of the world? What more do we have to say?
So, it goes without saying that the different events spoken of in the Semitic scriptures are not acknowledged in Sree Guru Granth Saahib. The Gurus lived in an Islamic environment with total exposure to Islam. They were aware of all these stories, but rejected them as myths. Is it credible that the entire human race began from one "Adam" and women were created from the rib of Adam? How can you create a human out of a rib? Does this make any sense whatsoever?? And Noah's Ark, which was the big boat you speak of. How can all the creatures of the earth fit into ONE boat? The survival of a species is based on its gene pool. Reducing a species to TWO totally destroys its chances of survival by killing of its genetic ability to adapt to new environments. This is scientifically IMPOSSIBLE and ILLOGICAL.
Jonah being swallowed whole by a whale: yes, of course. This is a great event in human history that simply begs to be recorded. Again, this event makes NO sense. It is a fairy tale.
Abraham is of no consequence to Sikhism, because the concept of God in Sikhism is much more profound and deep than that found in the Semitic faiths. Abraham was a human who made mistakes and I believe even cheated on his wife, so why would Sikhs revere him?
The Semitic scriptures are books of fables and myths, which of course are similar as each book was based on the one before it. The myths within these "scriptures" are not believable and many adherents of these religions now freely admit it and take all that is written as moral stories meant to give a lesson. If the Semitic faiths are indeed such great sources of worldhistory, where are the mention of the dinosaurs!? Surely that would be something that couldn’t' be missed! Adam and Eve were the first beings and thus must have lived along with or before Dinosaurs, so why haven't your scriptures made any reference to them?
The Sikh faith is a divinely revealed faith which was given to mankind by Satguru Nanak. It does not match with the three Semitic faiths, simply because Sikhism does no consider them to be revealed by God. Sree Guru Granth Saahib is a scripture which reveals God to the soul. It does not attempt to be a history text book. You present the Semitic scriptures as being great sources of world history and I ask again: then why does it miss such important events like Ice Age and the existence of dinosaurs?
4. It is a TOTALLY FALSE argument that Sikhism believes all paths lead to the same goal and thus all religions are equal: From its very inception, Gurmat has been declared a unique and distinct path. Bhai Gurdas writes: "the Guru has created the mighty Gurmukh panth. This panth keeps itself away from the boundaries of the Vedas and the Semitic scriptures...” (Bhai Gurdas, 23.19)
SGGS over and over stresses the importance of "Gurmat Naam". Without Gurmat Naam no one can find Akaal or reach sachkhand. Gurmat naam is only available in the house of Guru Nanak: "Nanak kai ghar keval, naam" . Keval means "only".
Without naam, no one can find God. GurbaaNee is clear about htis fact:
Nanak naam binaa ko mukath n hoee
Translation:O Nanak, without the Naam, the Name of the Lord, no one is liberated
Where is this naam to be found? From the Guru.
bin gur naam n paaeiaa jaae
Translation:Without the Guru, the Naam cannot be obtained.
Satguru Nanak is the only true Guru who has preached naam, and given gurmat-naam.
As for other acts of "religion", this is what Guru Nanak says:
theeruthh thup dhaeiaa dhuth dhaan ||
Pilgrimages, austere discipline, compassion and charity
jae ko paavai thil kaa maan ||
these, by themselves, bring only an iota of merit.
suniaa mu(n)niaa man keethaa bhaao ||
Listening and believing with love and humility in your mind,
a(n)thurugath theerathh mal naao ||
cleanse yourself with the Name, at the sacred shrine deep within.......
So, unless someone receives Gurmat Naam from Guru Nanak, there is no liberation. They will be rewarded for their good karma, but not liberated. They don't want liberation! Christians are content with heaven, and they wil recieve it. But then they will enter the cycle of births and deaths again, hopefully in a life which will bring them closer to liberation. Gurmat Panth's respect of all religions goes as far as saying that they are not sent to eternal hell, they will get what they work for. Like Harmandir Saahib: God is open and available to all directions and all people of the world, but the path to God is ONE. Gurmat
About other faiths:
eik jainee oujhurr paae dhhuruhu khuaaeiaa ||
Some are Jains, wasting their time in the wilderness; by their pre-ordained destiny, they are ruined. panna 1285
hi(n)dhoo a(n)nhaa thurukoo kaanaa ||
The Hindu is blind; the Muslim has only one eye. panna 875
In many other places it is made clear that Gurmat, the way of the Giani, who meditates on Gurmat Naam is the only path to Akaal. Others will get their heaven etc. but not find Akaal.
All faiths will get what they work towards. Only Gurmat has a concept such as Sach Khand and God-Realisation in such a clear way. Thus, Gurmat is the only path to Sach Khand and merger with Akaal.
Who else is the true Guru of status of Guru Nanak? Mohammad? Jesus? Krishna? Rama? There is none. These prophets don't come close to even the Sikhs of Guru Nanak, let alone Guru Nanak himself. GurbaaNee leaves no doubt: "Sabh tay Vadaa Satgur Nanak, Jin kal raakhee mayree" meaning Satuguru Nanak is THE GREATEST who has protected my honour in this age of darkness (Kaljug).
Re: Malpractices of Sikhs
Posted by : !!
Date: 7/28/2004 10:23 am
My apologies for being misunderstood:-
All I meant was that we shouldn't try to prove Ram ji/Krishna ji etc didn't exist and that they are only mythological figures or figments of imagination etc.
Also we shouldn't say this in front of a hindu as it may hurt his feelings.
Also we needn't talk on this amongst ourselves (i mean on sikh egroups)because it creates an unnecessary aura of superiority in our minds if we are able to disapprove the others.
No doubt Gurbani is all powerful gyan of the lord.
Lets propogate and publicise the fact that gurbani (Dhur ki bani - the word of lord) comes from the mouth of not one person but a number of persons of all faiths and colours
Lets take pround in the fact that Orators of gurbani (creator of gurbani - Dhur ki bani - God) were sikh gurus as well as the Hindu bhagats as well as the Muslim fakirs.
Lets publicise that the Guru granth sahib ji is a prersent tense proof of respect for Kabir/Naamdev/Nanak in equal measures.
But at the same time lets not try to disapprove others.
No Doubt Guru Nanak is great .
Guru Nanak pardoned all the sinners, whosoever he met with:-
Guru Nanak pardoned the likes of kauda rakash (One who had wanted to make a cannible food of guru nanak and Mardana)
Guru Nanak pardoned the likes of sajjan thug (One who had tried to rob him at night and then throw him and mardana in the well)
or whosoever / no doubt dhan guru nanak is great but we should try to avoid the unnecessary discussions about Ram ji/Krishan ji etc
Friends, i feel - Gurbani is our guru and unto it alone we all should look
and
naam japo merey saajan saina - waheguroo waheguroo waheguroo waheguroo
Re: Malpractices of Sikhs
Posted by : Jarnail Singh Arshi Gyani
Date: 7/28/2004 10:24 am
Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh.
most of the talk about "aal " religions being same/similar/leading to God etc etc is most often uttered by "apologists"...usually SIKHS who attend multi-religious talks, seminars /meetings symposiums etc.
imho the spokesmen from the other religions like christianity/islam/hinduism will announce forcefully...Islam is the ONLY way...dito for the others...but when the time comes for the "sikh" to speak....he will start saying "all religions are same...they all have good points....all Paths lead to God...the God is Same...etc etc...
I have attended a few such seminars and symposiums, some even organsised by Sikh Organistaions with Guru ghar golak..... the other religions' speakers and reps come fully prepared to disseminate info about their own religions and convert a few...the sikhs go there and start saying all this about same religions, same god, same path etc...once i sat next to an anglican minister at ine such meeting organsied by a sikh organisation..the man was surprised to hear what the sikh chairman was talking about.....how can all religions be the same he told me...my Church, the Seventh day adventists is the Only TRUE Church ....how can a sikh know about my church....i told him the sikh doesnt even know about his own.....
Reality check: Buddhists dont even beleive in a God?Akal purakh...Islam has to beleive in Muhammad even before you can beleive in Allah in Christianity if you Dont beleive in jesus you will go to Hell...and Allah, jesus/god/ etc are NOT Akal Purakh at all. Just a cursory reading of what Allah/God is in the Bible/Koran will tell you that this "God" is vastly different from the Waheguru in Gurmat....no way the two are even remotely similar... So hw can all religions lead to the Same God when this God is NOt the same at all ??
The above article by singh is very well written and explains this all fully.
Dass jarnail Singh.
Re: Malpractices of Sikhs
Posted by : !!
Date: 7/28/2004 10:33 am
My answers are just above your post
Re: Malpractices of Sikhs
Posted by : J Singh
Date: 7/28/2004 12:53 pm
Thnaks for the excellent post "singh" . Very informative.
Re: Malpractices of Sikhs
Posted by : me
Date: 7/28/2004 3:31 pm
I dont think there is anything wrong with a sikh knowing that he/sjhe is superior to another person because of thier sikhi, since sikhi is superisor, we are the only ones with the true guru, the Satguru, and we are the only ones that will reach Saachkhaand. What is wrong with knowing this and admitting it?
Re: Malpractices of Sikhs
Posted by : MS
Date: 7/28/2004 4:38 pm
what is wot makes us superior is the humility of that truth, to think ur big and smart becaue ur on the true path only goes 2 show ur not actually on that true path if it has lead u to think ur big and smart and every1 else is wrong.
remember we accept that the other religions can allow u 2 achieve some measure of spirituality, however sikhi is unique in its goals.
Re: Malpractices of Sikhs
Posted by : !!
Date: 7/29/2004 2:49 am
Wonder what guru nanak will have to say
Guru nanak says in all humbleness :
Neechan andar neech jaat , neeki ho att neech
Jithey neech sammalian, tithey nadar teri bakhsish
Guru nanak is happy to be known as a lowly person but unlike guru nanak, we the sikhs of guru Nanak feel the superiority
Its not one mans fault but sikhs have started looking back to their glorious history and the pride of a sikh never dies.
Lets do ardaas to Guru sahib that he gives us all the sikhi he had meant to give us in the first place.
