ARCHIVED FORUM: Gurdwara Tapoban Sahib
hindu gods
Posted by : singhnee
Date: 7/27/2004 8:19 am
do we belief in the hindu gods? i always thought that the gods existed because in the gurbani they always say..braham mahesh..sachipat.
i recently heard that hindu gods are fake.
And the stories of raam and krishna must be conciderd as a moral story to separeta bad from eval.
just as adam and eve, abraham and arc of noah.
is this true??
Re: hindu gods
Posted by : Jarnail Singh Arshi Gyani
Date: 7/28/2004 6:54 am
Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki fateh.
bhen jio,
This topic has been discussed in aprevious thread titled: bhagat kabeer on raam".
as they say daal wichon ek dana tohiya bass hunda hai......to check if the daal is cooked you need to squish just one seed-daana.... bhagat kabeer's clear gurbani on the name of raam clears any doubts as to his "raam" is waheguru or the king ram chander. to kabeer his raam is waheguru.
so all the other "names" of hindu gods such as krishan, gopi, narayan, gopal, etc etc are also all for waheguru...and NOT for the hindu gods as in hinduism.
go through that thread and give us your input.
dass jarnail singh
Re: hindu gods
Posted by : !!
Date: 7/28/2004 7:08 am
Hi friends
It gives me pain to write this but then we the sikhs, have strayed from our path.
We (many learned sikh scholars included) have time and again been writing to prove the non-existance of the Gods like ram, krishna etc. There have been books written by sikh writers on this issue.
Please remember what Guru nanak had to say about the faith and the religion of others. gurur Nanak said
Jagat jalanda rakh lae apni kirpa dhaar
Jit duwarrey Oobrey titey leho ubaar
(At Whichever door the people burning from worldly issues find peace, let them have peace my Lord)
and we are going all-out to shatter the faith and beleifs of others, which is no good
posted by (a sikh)
Re: hindu gods
Posted by : singhnee
Date: 7/28/2004 8:45 am
i think i get it...
its not up to us to say the mythecals are true..we should respect other religions and we could learn about the stories.
So nowhere inthe ggs it says every story is fake,because thats disrespect.
am i right?
Re: hindu gods
Posted by : P Singh
Date: 7/28/2004 9:27 am
Personally, I think Ram Chander is reffered to as is Ravan and many other Hindu Gods and Devtay. They are a part of God's creation so talking about them does not make you a hindu.
What were Sikhs before they were Sikhs? We were Hindus, correct? There is nothing wrong in reffering to Hindu Gods, its not like Gurbani tells us to worship them.
Jarnail Singh Arshi Gyani, I respect you but I am saddened to see your stance on this subject. What are your thoughts on the following lines (If you think Hindu Gods are not reffered to):
---------------------------------------------------------------
aaeiaa suniaa bidhar dhae bolae dhurajodhhan hoe rukhaa||
Hearing that Lord Krishan was served and stayed over at humble Bidar's home, Duryodhan remarked sarcastically.
Bhai Gurdaas Ji
Vaars Bhai Gurdaas
10
---------------------------------------------------------
gaavan thudhhano ei(n)dhr ei(n)dhraasan bait(h)ae dhaevathiaa dhar naalae ||
Indra, seated on His Throne, sings of You, with the deities at Your Door.
Guru Nanak Dev Ji
So Dar
8
-----------------------------------------------------------
kott ei(n)dhr anaek dhaevaa japath suaamee jai jai kaar ||
Millions of Indras and countless gods and super-human beings meditate on the Lord Master and celebrate His Praises.
Guru Arjan Dev Ji
Raag Aasaa
455
-------------------------------------------------------------
hanoomaan sar garurr samaanaa(n) || surapath narapath nehee gun jaanaa(n) ||2||
Beings like Hanumaan, Garura, Indra the King of the gods and the rulers of humans - none of them know Your Glories, Lord. ||2||
Bhagat Kabeer Ji
Raag Dhanaasree
691
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a(n)dhhulai dhehasir moo(n)dd kattaaeiaa raavan maar kiaa vaddaa bhaeiaa ||1||
The blind, ten-headed Raavan had his heads cut off, but what greatness was obtained by killing him? ||1||
Guru Nanak Dev Ji
Raag Aasaa
350
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Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa! Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!
Bhul Chuk Maaf
Re: hindu gods
Posted by : another singh
Date: 7/28/2004 9:32 am
Not always does guru refer to Waheguru when mentioning the names of hindu gods. Many times, Guru Sahib is giving us an example of their life myth, or stories.
1.) Here Guru Nanak Sahib is saying that Waheguru is the highest and he IS those gods:
example:
gur eesar gur gorakh baramaa gur paarabathee maaee ||
(The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi. )
2.) Guru Sahib also makes the point that even these Hindu God's look up to the almighty Waheguru; this has been stated very early on in Sikhism. Since Guru Sahib respects these God's, we must naturally do the same, and in the same fashion as he has:
example:
gaavehi chith gupath likh jaanehi likh likh dhharam veechaarae ||
Chitr and Gupt, the angels of the conscious and the subconscious who record actions, and the Righteous Judge of Dharma who judges this record sing.
gaavehi eesar baramaa dhaevee sohan sadhaa savaarae ||
Shiva, Brahma and the Goddess of Beauty, ever adorned, sing.
gaavehi ei(n)dh eidhaasan bait(h)ae dhaevathiaa dhar naalae ||
Indra, seated upon His Throne, sings with the deities at Your Door.
gaavehi sidhh samaadhhee a(n)dhar gaavan saadhh vichaarae ||
The Siddhas in Samaadhi sing; the Saadhus sing in contemplation.
gaavan jathee sathee sa(n)thokhee gaavehi veer karaarae ||
The celibates, the fanatics, the peacefully accepting and the fearless warriors sing.
gaavan pa(n)ddith parran rakheesar jug jug vaedhaa naalae ||
The Pandits, the religious scholars who recite the Vedas, with the supreme sages of all the ages, sing.
gaavehi mohaneeaa man mohan suragaa mashh paeiaalae ||
The Mohinis, the enchanting heavenly beauties who entice hearts in this world, in paradise, and in the underworld of the subconscious sing.
gaavan rathan oupaaeae thaerae at(h)asat(h) theerathh naalae ||
The celestial jewels created by You, and the sixty-eight holy places of pilgrimage sing.
gaavehi jodhh mehaabal sooraa gaavehi khaanee chaarae ||
The brave and mighty warriors sing; the spiritual heroes and the four sources of creation sing.
gaavehi kha(n)dd ma(n)ddal varabha(n)ddaa kar kar rakhae dhhaarae ||
The planets, solar systems and galaxies, created and arranged by Your Hand, sing.
saeee thudhhuno gaavehi jo thudhh bhaavan rathae thaerae bhagath rasaalae ||
They alone sing, who are pleasing to Your Will. Your devotees are imbued with the Nectar of Your Essence.
3.) It is very easy to overlook the importance of Hindu Gods and their relationship to Sikhism. Our Dharam is about Waheguru and Truth. We must read bani, and understand the relationship which was set up by Guru Nanak Sahib very early on in Sikhism, and early on in SGGS.
Some last examples will keep us in the right track:
siv siv karath sagal kar jorehi sarab maeiaa t(h)aakur thaeree dhohee ||1||
Everyone calls upon You with their palms pressed together, saying, ""Shiva, Shiva"". O Merciful Lord and Master, everyone cries out for Your Help. ||1||
aapae siv sakathee sa(n)jogee ||
He is the Uniter of Shiva and Shakti - mind and matter.
4.) Below, Kabeer Jee couldn't have said it in better words, that Shiva, Hanumaan, and other Hindu Gods are all spiritually awake. Kabeer Jee (just like all Guru Sahibs) recognizes the spiritual levels of these Hindu Gods, but then Kabeer Jee says -- GURMUKH JAAGAI SOYEE SAAR! (being gurmukh is the most excellent way to reach Waheguru).
jaagai sukadhaeo ar akoor ||
Suk Dayv and Akrur are awake and aware.
hanava(n)th jaagai dhhar la(n)koor ||
Hanuman with his tail is awake and aware.
sa(n)kar jaagai charan saev ||
Shiva is awake, serving at the Lord's Feet.
kal jaagae naamaa jaidhaev ||2||
Naam Dayv and Jai Dayv are awake in this Dark Age of Kali Yuga. ||2||
jaagath sovath bahu prakaar ||
There are many ways of being awake, and sleeping.
guramukh jaagai soee saar ||
To be awake as Gurmukh is the most excellent way.
eis dhaehee kae adhhik kaam ||
The most sublime of all the actions of this body,
kehi kabeer bhaj raam naam ||3||2||
says Kabeer, is to meditate and vibrate on the Lord's Name. ||3||2||
Re: hindu gods
Posted by : !!
Date: 7/28/2004 9:54 am
Yes you seem to get me rightly - all I meant was we shouldn't try to prove that Ram/Krishna etc didn't exist and that they are mythological figures etc as we don't know for sure.
Also we shouldn't say this in front of a hindu as it may hurt his feelings.
Gurbani is our guru and unto it we all should look, and we should try to avoid the unnecessary discussions about Ram/Krishan etc
naam japo merey saajan saina - waheguroo waheguroo waheguroo waheguroo
Re: hindu gods
Posted by : !!
Date: 7/28/2004 10:36 am
My apologies for being misunderstood:-
All I meant was that we shouldn't try to prove Ram ji/Krishna ji etc didn't exist and that they are only mythological figures or figments of imagination etc.
Also we shouldn't say this in front of a hindu as it may hurt his feelings.
Also we needn't talk on this amongst ourselves (i mean on sikh egroups)because it creates an unnecessary aura of superiority in our minds if we are able to disapprove the others.
No doubt Gurbani is all powerful gyan of the lord.
Lets propogate and publicise the fact that gurbani (Dhur ki bani - the word of lord) comes from the mouth of not one person but a number of persons of all faiths and colours
Lets take pround in the fact that Orators of gurbani (creator of gurbani - Dhur ki bani - God) were sikh gurus as well as the Hindu bhagats as well as the Muslim fakirs.
Lets publicise that the Guru granth sahib ji is a prersent tense proof of respect for Kabir/Naamdev/Nanak in equal measures.
But at the same time lets not try to disapprove others.
No Doubt Guru Nanak is great .
Guru Nanak pardoned all the sinners, whosoever he met with:-
Guru Nanak pardoned the likes of kauda rakash (One who had wanted to make a cannible food of guru nanak and Mardana)
Guru Nanak pardoned the likes of sajjan thug (One who had tried to rob him at night and then throw him and mardana in the well)
or whosoever / no doubt dhan guru nanak is great but we should try to avoid the unnecessary discussions about Ram ji/Krishan ji etc
Friends, i feel - Gurbani is our guru and unto it alone we all should look
and
naam japo merey saajan saina - waheguroo waheguroo waheguroo waheguroo
Re: hindu gods
Posted by : Jarnail Singh Arshi Gyani
Date: 7/28/2004 8:25 pm
Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki fateh.
Dear !! and others,
i too agree that we shouldnt say things a hindu wouldnt want to hear..why would anybody want to tell a hindu that "HIS GOD KRISHNA" doesnt or does exist. to a Hindu obviously ALL the 33 KROR DEVTAS EXIST . So let it be. I for one woudnt go around looking for Hindus to tell them this "great fact"...which hindu in his right mind would listen to me !!! GURU NANAK travelled to ALL the Major Hindu teeraths just to tell them that....IF ALL hindus had beleived in GURU JI there wouldnt be any Hindus today....but it is historical fact that not many listened even to GURU NANAK...so who are we to tell others what is right and what is wrong.
Any sikh who goes out of his way to tell hindus that their gods dont exist or are myths is WRONG.....what we SIKHS genuinely beleive is our buisness.
In a similar manner no hindu should tell me that the ram-krishan in Gurbani are HIS GODS...because HINDUS came FIRST and the SIKH GURUS WERE HINDUS......and so naturally ALL Hindu GODS are also SIKH GODS !! and if a hindu does tell me that i would dismiss it. IF Ram and Krishan are REAL GODS equal for Hindus and SIKHS by virtue of this name being mentioned in Gurbani.... then the 33 KROR DEVTAS, MILLIONS of INDRAS are also VALID GODS for us ??? In Hinduism there is only ONE "INDRA"...BUT Guru Nanak sys MILLIONS of INDRAS..... what is GURU JI talking about ?? WHICH particular INDIRA is GOD and which is NOT ?? it is an exercise in futility...why not just concentrate on our GURUS, martyrs jeewans as chanan munareh and Gurbani and naam simran..
Thank you for your input. I have learned a lot.
dass Jarnail singh
Re: hindu gods
Posted by : Singh
Date: 7/29/2004 2:20 am
Anyone who posts quotes from gurbani MUST put the ang ref. Too many times have we found that translations are misleading or blatantly wrong. With out the ang refs for other to check and see its no pint using them, as we don’t know if the bani is actually saying what the person is arguing. The admin should make a point of only allowing posts with the exact ang refs like other phorums.
Re: hindu gods
Posted by : Singh
Date: 7/29/2004 3:12 am
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fetah
People really need to read Gurbani and find out the obvious for themselves, rather than asking others blatantly obvious questions. It’s clear that hindu gods etc did or do exist. However Gurbani reveals unlike in Hinduism they are not all powerful gods, but simply a part of creation, subject to birth/deaths and are under the control and lower than Akal Purkh. They are simplt different creatures and tools and are not to be worhipped as they are subject to the laws of nature like everyone apart from Akal Purkh. As for names like Ram, Gopal, Gobind etc these are Karam naams (names with attributable meanings) and are for Akal Purkh.
When a name like Ram is used for Ram Chander its blindingly obvious to the reader that here the same name is being used for someone else and not as a Karam Naam for Akal Purkh.
I may sound harsh but people who cannot even understand this basic concept of Gurmat ie one unequalled Akal Purkh to be worshiped really need to stop debating about Keski’s, sarblo, bana etc and find out the very basics of sikhi first.
Re: hindu gods
Posted by : Singh
Date: 7/29/2004 5:24 am
!!
It's all well and good not hurting Hindu's feelings, but Gurbani is crystal clear that that Dev's, Krishna, Ram Chander etc are not Akal Purkh but just part of creation. Gurbani also reveals how caste, rituals and many aspects of Hinduism is not all true. What should we as Sikhs to.? Simply beleive in what Guru Ji reveals and if that hurts the feelings of anyone than what can we do, as long as we are in Gurmat. We should not bring Bani down by changing meanings etc or making compromises in order to make Hindu's or anone else happy. Guru Ji does reveal Krishna, Ram Chender as existed and indeed God was inside them just like its inside you and me, but the difference is that they were not God as beleived in Hinduism. Knowing this we must not hurt anyones feelings regardless but must also accept and follow Gurmat.
krisan balbhadaro gur pag lag Dhi-aavai.
Even Krishna and Balbhadar meditated on the Lord, falling at the Guru's Feet. ang 165
