ARCHIVED FORUM: Gurdwara Tapoban Sahib
Ravan, an honoured bhagat in Gurbani?
Posted by : P Singh
Date: 7/21/2004 7:49 pm
I got this post from SA:
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hello everyone,
2 nights ago, I went out for a nice walk and I met a katha vaachik at the local gurdawara (a nanaksar tath). This katha vaachik made 2 VERY interesting point in front of the sangat. The first was that guru sahib had kept dasam granth 1 page (2 sides) purposely smaller. I asked him what he meant and he said that guru sahib meant dasam granth to be at a very respected shastar level (hence we bow). He had spent some time in hazoor sahib.
The second point that was made was that ravan is the most honored bhagat in all of gurbani. He gave a quotation from guru granth sahib ji (aad) and then he gave guru gobind singh ji's veneration from dasam granth.
another very interesting point that was brought up was his translation of 9 patshahi de salok.
raam gayo, raavan gayo......
he said ram hasn't gone anywhere. We say raam X number of times in gurbani... ram is everywhere, he said that when sri raam chandar went to go fight ravan he had to shoot him where his amrit (from his bhagtee, which was in his naabi) was in his body. They said at the moment, god had to come...hence raaam gayo.....god had to go to and intervene, then ravan left...so it was god going to intervene, ravan left thereafter.
food for thought, he might have been a bit off, but he might be completely right in some other way, I think it was worth sharing
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Re: Ravan, an honoured bhagat in Gurbani?
Posted by : Jarnail Singh Arshi Gyani
Date: 7/22/2004 3:07 am
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.
Raam Gayo...but he didnt go ?? Raavan gayo.....Ravan DID GO ??? and what about Jako bauh parivaar ??? what does this sentence mean ??
GURBANI is CRYSTAL CLEAR and not bothersome RIDDLES...one "gaya" BUT doesnt really go ... then the other GAYA....and he DOES GO..... and so do the parvaars ?? whose parvaars ??
I will stick with the Prevailing meaning given as it GOES ALONG with the ENTIRE CENTRAL THEME THREAD of the Slok mah 9.
However I am aware that RAAVAN is NOT the DEMON he has been made out to be by the "majority" of Krishan Bhagats who wrote the Mahabharta/Raam Bhagats who wrote the Ramayana etc. It is pertinent ot remember... WHO Started the FEUD by cutting off the nose of LADY ?? Raavan's sister was defiled in this way.....and subsequent events prove "raam chander" was not such a "god" after all.. He suspected his wife sita of INFIDELITY and REJECTED HER on the mere gossip of a someone.
Raam and Krishan were the "GODS" of the ARYANS who usurped the LANDS and CITIES of the DRAVIDIANS...chasing them into the JUngles and into SOUTH India...making them into Bheels, DEMONS, etc etc....and ram chandar's war into Raavan's Sri lanka was a continuation of this ARYAN CONQUEST. The Brahmins who rewrote this "history" then changed the Villan into HERO and Hero into Villan according to their aims
Those who dont beleive this can have a look at how "sikh hsitory" is being CHANGED in Modern India to make Guru Gobind Singh Ji Look like a Fifth columnist, bhullar desh bhagat, Guru Teg bahadur is being made into a ordinary robber and thief punished for his " crimes" by beheading.... banda Bahdur into a raving lunatic who plundered towns and razed villages to the ground destroying mosques etc etc... an ENTIRE SIKH COMMUNITY is being MALIGNED as TERRORISTS, RAVING LUNATICS with madness under the Turban, etc etc. The only difference is that during thsoe times... the PUROHIT had 100% CONTROL.... each HINDU FAMILY had its OWN PRIVATE PUROHIT that DECIDED what the family should know, do and thats that....NOW this KNOWLEDGE BASE is widespread and not controlled so easily.....Thats why GURU NANAK REJECTED the FAMILY PUROHIT, REJECTED HIS JANAEU, REJECTED HIS CASTE, REJECTED HIS SANSKRIT....in fact GURU JI REJECTED EACH and EVERY BRICK that built the FORT of the Purohit and Brough this "invincible FORT" crashing Down....thats why the SIKHS and their GURUS are so "hated" and reviled.....the Purohit Python is struggling to swallow the SIKH NATION ( like it did buddhiusm and jainism) but finding it hard to keep it down !!!!
Dass jarnail Singh
Re: Ravan, an honoured bhagat in Gurbani?
Posted by : Deep Singh
Date: 7/22/2004 11:57 am
Gyani Jarnail Singh Ji:
"bhullar desh bhagat"
What do you mean by this? Who is Bhullar..i am is that some person realted to Sikh history? i heard it is a got among jatt farmers in Punjab...but don't know anyone related to Sikh history with that name....
Re: Ravan, an honoured bhagat in Gurbani?
Posted by : hmm..
Date: 7/22/2004 12:13 pm
BhullaR: means misguided. Bhullar is a Jat clan name and totally different.
So BhullaR desh bhagat means "misguided patriot"
Re: Ravan, an honoured bhagat in Gurbani?
Posted by : bislily
Date: 7/22/2004 5:04 pm
jarnail singh jee is on the mark
guru tegh bahadur jee's salok does not say that ram stayed
it clearly says
ram had a big family and lots of influence, so did ravan
they both had to go from here
so what stays
guru jee also says that
naam rahio saadhu rahio rahio gur gobind
Re: Ravan, an honoured bhagat in Gurbani?
Posted by : Jarnail Singh Arshi Gyani
Date: 7/22/2004 8:06 pm
Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki fateh.
Yes Veer Deep Singh Ji,
the word is "bhullaR" ( with a Rarra LAST alaphabet of painti not "r" as in ruler ) and this means Misguided Patriot....
These words were written by MK Gandhi when comparing GURU GOBIND SINGH JI to Mahartaa Shivaji. According to this fanatic hindu bania who was "mistakenly given the title of Bapu and founder of Indian independence"....... GURU Ji was a "patriot" ( he couldnt DENY that much) but a misgided one .....while Shivaji who fought for his Kingdom/family throne...was a TRUE PATRIOT...
This shows clearly that the gandhi/nehru/patel gang that finally grabbed power in India after the Sikhs had made huge sacrifices...already hated the Sikhs and their Gurus...but pretended to go along by "praising" the sikhs to keep them in front of British Guns..... PRIOR to 1947 there is NOT a SINGLE ANTI-SIKH sentence written by any Hindu writer or Press....JUST 18 DAYS after India declared Independence... the PENS of POISON opened like a FLOOD.......and NOT a SINGLE SENTENCE in the entire Indian press/Media has ever praised the Sikhs or their Gurus or their Culture. The First Person to unsheath his poison pen was Durgadass of Hindustan Times who had full patronage of Nehru called Guru Gobind Singh a "fifth columnist" who conspired with the Moghuls to destroy the Hindu rajas.... and then the rivers of HATE and MALICE spread through papers like Milaap, Partaap, Indian express., Tribune etc etc. This is still going on and Sikhs are being maligned day and night in every Indian news media/ history books etc.
Dass jarnail Singh.
PS. bhullar is aJatt Tribal name also but that is spelled with R as in ruler
Re: Ravan, an honoured bhagat in Gurbani?
Posted by : Jarnail Singh Arshi Gyani
Date: 7/24/2004 7:41 am
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki fateh.
Benti to not go after these "varied" and "new" arrth....
Playing with words is so easy.
Let me share with you what the Christians say
According to the christians..the BHOG SLOK that begins with''Khambh vikndereh je lahan....
Refers to JESUS carrying his Cross and Guru teg bahadur sahib jee is sying..
Dear Lord Jesus... IF ONLY I also could carry the KHAMB(A) cross like you Ja lahan...etc etc....its all too FANTASTIC....
Then again there is a very POPULAR SAKHI...obviously INVENTED by the BRITISH to legitimise their conquest of India..... This one refers to Guru Teg bahadur ji standing on His Kotha drying His Hair after a bath...and LOOKING WESTWARD.... a Sikh approaches and asks Guru Ji what He is looking at....and GUR JI replies" I am LOOKING at MY WHITE SIKHS arrving from the WEST...they will soon arrive and RULE this country..."
I notice it is becoming the FASHION to COIN NEW aarths, new definitions etc of Gurbani...to show off that I am a New scholar/kamii walah gursikh who has gurbani drishti..etc etc...Take all these with a PINCH of SALT.
Dass Jarnail Singh
Re: Ravan, an honoured bhagat in Gurbani?
Posted by : avidya
Date: 7/25/2004 1:14 am
WaheGuruji Ka Khalsa WaheGuruji Ki Fateh
Jarnail Singh Maharaj
Please, if GURBANI is so very simple, then please explain why pooran mahavidvaans such as Baba Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwala are acredited with giving numerous aarths to a line of gurbani?
Secondly, a correction. If Guru ji rejected his 'sanskrit' as you stated, there would be a lot of missing terminology from Gurbani. In fact it is essential to understand the mool aarth of these words to have proper aarth of Gurbani, so please for the sake of the sangat refrain from making unfortunate comments. I realise in the flow it sounded good, but it isn't atually true.
Thank you
Re: Ravan, an honoured bhagat in Gurbani?
Posted by : Kulbir Singh
Date: 7/25/2004 5:52 am
Many gursikhs including Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee, Professor Sahib Singh jee and numerous others strongly believed that there can be only one meaning of Gurbani. Sometimes, it is possible that there are deeper implications of a meaning of Gurbani but Gurbani cannot have 10-20 meanings as many other gursikhs believed.
At the same time, gursikhs like Sant Gurbachan Singh jee believed in more than one meanings and they were entitled to their opinion. I have listened to Sant jee's katha a lot and I have found that most of the time, the second or third meanings that Sant jee does are just deeper or inner implications of the literal meaning of a pankiti. That is perfectly acceptable and there is nothing wrong in it. But to say that Gurbani can have two opposing meanings does not seem to be correct in my opinion.
Daas,
Kulbir Singh
Re: Ravan, an honoured bhagat in Gurbani?
Posted by : Jarnail Singh Arshi Gyani
Date: 7/25/2004 7:18 am
Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji ki fateh.
Waheguru... even in the "flow of things.." maharaj" for a neech nimana sikh is not at all true...and it doesnt sound good at all. ( are you trying to take away my "kamaii" by any chance.....then i better warn you i have none !!)
Gurbani is not ambiguous - it would be self defeating to have many many interpretations. why would Guru Ji say ONE thing and MEAN 30 things ??? Such will suit only those wanting to add confusion and myriad interpretations so that everyone is satisfied...that is pick the meaning that suits you. YEs as Veer Ji Kulbir Singh ji has aptly stated....deeper and inner implications, nuances of words are permissable...sometimes the too literal meaning does not convey the real beauty of gurbani and it can be expanded..BUT keeping always in mind that the kaswatti of other gurbani must be kept in mind ( NO gurbani tuk in ISOLATION can have a meaning OPPOSITE of other Tuks in Gurbani).
by REJECTING SANSKRIT i meant just that. First Buddha rejected sanskrit because it was a MONOPOLY of the Brahmin ( Buddhists started using prakrit bhasha)..Guru Nanak sahib jee went one step further...and used PUNJABI..so that the masses would be FREE of the language monopoly of the brahmin. This doesnt mean that Guru Ji also rejected the "knowledge" or "vocabulary" of sanskrit.....that would be totally stupid because one would have to INVENT brand new words, etc...NO language in the World does that. lok at the French.... they reject English...But they dont reject "vocabulary" or "knowledge" in English...they convert it to French. Similarly all thta Guru Ji wanted to use from sanskrti is converted to Punjabi and is available in the Guru Granth...BUT in a "PUNJABISED VERSION". This is probably the reason why the Swami Dyanand of satyarth parkash ( arya samajist) wrote in his book about Guru nanak that GURU JI DID NOT KNOW SANSKRIT very well and that is why Guru Ji uses the "wrong sanskrti words" in His Gurbani. Swami Ji was so "engrossed" in his MOOL Sanskrit words that he forgot he was INSULTING Guru Nanak sahib jee. Prof sahib singh Ji gives many examples of such Punjabised sanskrti words in gurbani..and proves why the moolarthis are wrong.
Baba Ji Gurbachan Singh Bhinderawaleh ( who incidentally were also the gurbani teacher of my late father ji) goes deep into gurbani..but i have not seen his meanings go in opposite directions for any tuk.
Thank You Ji for your valuable input.
Dass jarnail Singh
Re: Ravan, an honoured bhagat in Gurbani?
Posted by : Deep Singh
Date: 7/25/2004 1:34 pm
I believe the various Shabads/words used in Gurbani can have lots of meanings, but when we read the Shabad in it's context, there has to be ONE meaning, ie One of the many found in the dictionaries. And that has to be decided according to:
1. Linguistics-grammar...ie various Gurbani Viakaran and Shabad-Kosh.
2. The context [that, that meaning of that Shabad fits in the Shabads corresponding to it]
3. Previous oral/written understanding..ie Viakhyas and the Tika tradition.
This is the 'scholarly' way of doing it. Sant and Mahapursh also stress upon Gian or mystic knowledge, found through Bhagti/Naam-Abhiyaas, and the Arth they give may be outside Viakaran or conventional Shabad-Kosh.
my humble opinion,
Bhul Chuk Maaf.
ps. Thanks, i guess i misread what was written about Bhullar, the Clan, and BhullaR, the misguided. thanks for removing my doubts.
Re: Ravan, an honoured bhagat in Gurbani?
Posted by : P Singh
Date: 7/25/2004 2:14 pm
Anything incorrect with this interpretation?
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raam gayo, raavan gayo......
Ram Chander went, Raavan went...
I believe this just means that no matter how powerful, EVERYONE must depart, NOONE is forever. This just tells us that our time here on earth is precious and let's make use of it to learn and realise our true selves.
Also, Ravan is most honoured Bhagat in Gurbani??? This is obviosuly NOT TRUE.
Bhul Chuk Maaf
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Re: Ravan, an honoured bhagat in Gurbani?
Posted by : avidya
Date: 7/26/2004 2:01 am
WahGuruji Ka Khalsa WaheGuruji Ki Fateh
Jarnail Singh ji
A couple more corrections;
Guru Nanak Dev ji did not compose in Punjabi it's mainly braj bhasha (i.e. old hindi that the bhagats composed in). The sanskritic vocabulary that he uses is not 'wrong'. He used it for a reason. He is using concepts and terminology from philosophies that we must understand to understand the full purport of the shabad.
Secondly, I am not suprised that Bhai Randhir Singh and Bhai Sahib Singh both feel there is only one meaning to Gurbani, that is very much in line with their worldview and understanding of Sikhi in the general frame. It is more a literalist approach to Gurbani.
No offense intended but in every tradition there exist fundamentalists who argue there is only one possible understanding of scripture. They arise in Christianity, Islam, Hindu dharm, etc. There are also those who are more mystical, shall we say, who will look to the deeper meaning and intent of a line, or perhaps to a number of potential meanings. In fact in Islamic scholarly traitions there are accepted levels of interpretation gradually becoming more mystical.
Finally if you have not heard Baba Gurbachan Singh ji's explanations, how do you know he is incorrect! Are you not simply blissfully ignorant of the deeper meanings? If so, then it is best not to comment on such issues.
Re: Ravan, an honoured bhagat in Gurbani?
Posted by : Jarnail Singh Arshi Gyani
Date: 7/26/2004 6:56 pm
WAHEGURU JI KA KHASA WAHEGURU JI FATEH
Dear Avidya Ji,
By "punjabi" i mean the script. Of course the "punjabi" of the Guru Granth sahib Jee is not the punjabi we know today.....and i am aware that there are many languages in gurbani as the bhagats also came from different areas in india and guru ji also wrote in persian as well. this is where many of our youth and those who teach them fall into the trap.....they open page of gurbani and see the same oora aira eeree...they think ok this gurbani paath thing is very easy...as i already know oora airra eeree....
the mystical traditions ... i am afraid i dont know much as some of our readers and friends out there including your good self. I sure would like a few examples to widen my experience.
Finally i have not dismissed Baba Gurbachan singh Ji's explanations as "incorrect" from what little i have heard his kathas ....it would be highly presumptious of me.
Dass jarnail Singh
Re: Ravan, an honoured bhagat in Gurbani?
Posted by : MS
Date: 7/27/2004 4:54 pm
Kulbir Singh said:
>But to say that Gurbani can have two opposing meanings does not seem to be correct in my opinion.
eikaa baanee eik gur eiko sabadh veechaar
Re: Ravan, an honoured bhagat in Gurbani?
Posted by : Jarnail Singh Arshi Gyani
Date: 7/28/2004 10:47 am
Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh.
MS wrote: "Eika baanee...Eik GUR, Eiko Shabad Vichaar.... Guur Ji uses the NUMERAL EIK three times to emphasise.... That winds up everyhting pretty nicely. nothing could be clearer than that.
Dass jarnail Singh.
Re: Ravan, an honoured bhagat in Gurbani?
Posted by : MS
Date: 7/28/2004 4:34 pm
yes i thought so too
however i hope i did not misuse the context in which guroo sahib is refering too.
