ARCHIVED FORUM: Gurdwara Tapoban Sahib
Takhat patna jathedar "speaks"
Posted by : Jarnail Singh Arshi Gyani
Date: 7/16/2004 11:47 pm
Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki fateh.
The Takhat patna sahib jathedar Giani Ikbal Singh has in a series of lectures at various Gurdawras and in published a 16 page Tract in which he makes the following patently ridiculous statements:
1. GURU NANAK established the Patna Takhat in 1563 by taking off His 2 1/2 Yard Turban and tying it on the head of rai johri . Therefore this makes Takaht patna the FIRST and PREMIER TAKHAT of Sikhism. By the way Guru nanak started His First Journey in 1564...and if just tying a turban on someone's head makes him a jathedar ??? What happened to Gur nanak after He gave his truban ?? did he go around naked headed ?
2. GianI Ikbal Singh jathedar further says the two granths - dasam granth and sarbloh Granth are BOTH written by GRANTHI SUKHA SINGH of Takhat patna... But he fails to EXPLAIN why at takhat patna.. why are these two granths written by a granthi are being PARKASH at EQUAL LEVEL as GURU GRANTH SAHIB JEE which is the Chaur Takhat de Malik of the Panth.
3. If a Sikh has not visited Takhat patna he says that person is NOT a SIKH ??? Then how about the SEVEN GURUS, the Panj piyars, Bhai mani singh, etc etc HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of Sikhs who NEVER visited Patna ?? Are they NOT Sikhs ??
4. Ikbal Singh further states that GURU JI NEVER called any place aTakhat EXCEPT Patna... so Akal takhat is NOT even a Takhat...let alone being Shiromani takaht.
5 Further he states that he is the FIRST JATHEDAR of Takaht patna....on one hand he says thet GURU NANAK established the Takhat in 1563...and then he says he is the FIRST JATHEDAR in 2000 ??? any LOGIC ??
6. GianI ikbal singh also claims that GURU Ka Langgar was FIRST started at PATNA by Guur nanak....
All the above points ( and many more ridiculous statements ) are made in an article in Gurmukhi sent out by Dr. Harjinder Singh Dilgeer which I received yesterday. Dr Dilgeer has sent a copy of this to Akal Takhat for "action" ...but there is already acrimony between he two jathedars over who is "supreme" and this latest tract is an example of how far Ikbal Singh is prepared to go to show he is SUPREME.
Dass jarnail Singh
Re: Takhat patna jathedar "speaks"
Posted by : Mkhalsa
Date: 7/17/2004 4:01 pm
Haumai Vadda Rog Hai
Re: Takhat patna jathedar "speaks"
Posted by : notagain
Date: 7/18/2004 4:08 pm
how do these people get away with such things?
somebody needs to get him of his pedestal and give him a slap
Re: Takhat patna jathedar "speaks"
Posted by : Masard GanDaa Singh
Date: 7/19/2004 6:50 am
Hey "Gyani" instead of acting tough on an AKJ message board why don't you go and ask him?
Re: Takhat patna jathedar "speaks"
Posted by : Deep Singh
Date: 7/19/2004 8:18 am
Brother Masard GanDaa Singh,
The issue is not about facing a person. Panthic issues are dealt like this. He is nothing more than a jathedar. They come and go. The issue is about the authority of Akal Takht, or Patna Sahib.
These issues are to discussed. We can solve this only through Vichar and understanding.
Re: Takhat patna jathedar "speaks"
Posted by : Jarnail Singh Arshi Gyani
Date: 7/19/2004 9:02 pm
Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki fateh.
Masard Ganda singh jio,
Facts are always Facts..... I have no axe to grind against anybody...BUT a JATHEDAR is a PANTHIC PERSON and it is the PANTH's RESPONSIBILITY to have a certain standard of people in these positions...otherwise we become a laughing stock. There is absolutely no reason for me to "face" the jathedar....HE MUST FACE the PANTH. As Veer Deep singh ji has so aptly put it...Jathedars come and go.... the Akal Takhat/Patna Takhat are WAHEGURU/GUU JI's TAKHATS and they STAND FOREVER and their status MUST be GUARDED FIERCELY by all.
Attached is the COMPLETE DOCUMENT IN GURMUKHI sent out by Dr. Harjinder Singh dilgeer including copies of police reports jathedar ikbal singh has made agaisnt the 27 year old son of his Patna sahib manager that this man abducted his wife and is living with her in Nepal and the Manager has made counter reports that the Jthedar's wife abducted his son and ran away with him....( please select all, copy and paste in Word Gurmukhi Lipi or similar Font to read ) Dr Dilgeer has copies of all reports and tracts published.
This Forum is unable to publish GURMUKHI FONTS directly due to OS problems.
Dass jarnail singh
DR. HS DILGEER's DOCUMENT:
q^q ptnw, Akwl q^q swihb qoN au~cw hY ?
fw. hrijMdr isMG idlgIr
(bIqy idnIN hirmMdr swihb, ptnw swihb dy muK syvwdwr iekbwl isMG ny igAwnI guridq isMG dI ikqwb ‘muMdwvxI’ nUM ADwr bxw ky ies dy lyKk, aunHW dy iek swQI BweI mohx isMG Aqy igAwnI joigMdr isMG vydWqI nUM ptnw swihb “qlb” kr ilAw sI [ pr, ies mgroN iekbwl isMG ny, 3 julweI 2004 nUM, iek hor “hukmnwmw” vI jwrI kIqw [ ies mzmUn ivc iekbwl isMG dI krguzwrI dw crcw kIqw igAw hY) [
24 AprYl qy 2 meI 2004 dy idn klk`qw ivc do gurpurbW dy mOky ‘qy hirmMdr swihb ptnw swihb dy muK syvwdwr/pujwrI igAwnI iekbwl isMG ny v`K-v`K gurduAwirAW ivc lYkcr kridAW ikhw ik ‘ptnw swihb q^q’ Akwl q^q swihb qoN pihlW bxwieAw igAw sI (qy ies kr ky ieh Akwl q^q qoN suprIm hY) [ iekbwl isMG horW ny ienHW lYkcrW dOrwn ‘is`K rihq mirAwdw’ Aqy gurmiq dy i^lw& keI g`lW vI khIAW [ ies sbMDI ‘is`K &orm’ klk`qw dy syvwdwrW ny iek mzmUn ‘m`D pRdyS isMG sBw inaUz lYtr’ dy jUn AMk (s&w 69, 70 qy 78) ivc CpvwieAw ijs ivc aunHW ny iekbwl isMG dy lYkcrW ivclIAW, is`KI dy ault qy mnmiq vwlIAW, g`lW dw izkr kIqw [ iekbwl isMG ny, 3 julweI 2004 dy idn, Awpxy nuks k`Fx vwilAW nUM, iek “hukmnwmw” jwrI kr ky, qn^whIey krwr dy idqw [(ies AKOqI ‘hukmnwmy’ ivc ijs is`K nUM qn^whIAw krwr idqw hY, aus dw nW hI nhIN, ies dw mqlb ieh hY ik swrw ‘is`K &orm’, Swied swrw is`K pMQ hI, qn^whIAw hY) [ iekbwl isMG dy AKOqI hukmnwmy ivc muK doS ieh lwieAw ik ‘is`K &orm’ vwilAW ny ‘m`D pRdyS isMG sBw inaUz lYtr’ ivcly lyK ivc ‘spoksmYn’ nUM “pMQk prcw” ikhw hY [ hwlW ik ‘is`K &orm’ ny ies mzmUn ivc ‘spoksmYn’ dw nW qk vI nhIN ilAw [ ^Yr, iekbwl isMG dy ies AKOqI-hukmnwmy nUM iksy ny mMnxw qW kI, gOilAw qk vI nhIN [ pr, ies AKOqI hukmnwmy dI sB qoN Aihm g`l ieh hY ik ies dy nwl ‘q^q ptnw’ v`loN CwipAw iek trYkt vI hY ijs nUM ^ud iekbwl isMG Aqy ptnw kmytI dy jnrl sk`qr mihMdrpwl isMG iF`lx (iF`loN dw ivgiVAw rUp) ny iliKAw hY [ ies 14 s&y dy ‘lyK’ ivc swibq kIqw igAw hY ik ‘q^q ptnw’ Akwl q^q swihb qoN pihlW bixAw sI qy ies kr ky ieh sB qoN suprIm hY [ iekbwl isMG ny qW ies lyK ivc Akwl q^q nUM “gurU dw QwipAw” q^q hI nhIN mMinAw igAw [
iekbwl isMG s&w 2 ‘qy ilKdw hY ik gurU nwnk swihb jd 1563 ibkrmI (1506 sMn) ivc ptnw swihb gey sn qW aunHW ny Awpxy isr qy bMnHI, fyF gz dI, dsqwr lwh ky swls rwey jOhrI nUM sjweI sI, ies kr ky ptnw gurU nwnk swihb dw q^q bx igAw [ pihlI g`l, sMmq 1563 dI qwrI^ vI Zlq hY ikauN ik gurU nwnk swihb dI pihlI audwsI 1564 ivc SurU hoeI sI [
dUjw, jd gurU nwnk swihb ibhwr v`l gey qW Ajy ptnw ngr visAw hI nhIN sI, ies nUM 1541 (sMmq 1598) ivc SyrSwh sUr (sUrI) ny Awbwd kIqw sI [ gurU nwnk swihb 1565-66 ibkrmI (1508-9) ivc ibhwr dy ngrW ibSMbrpur Aqy hwjIpur gey sn [ swls rwey jOhrI ibSMbrpur ivc rihMdw sI, ptnw jW hwjIpur ivc nhIN (vyKo jnmswKI BweI bwlw Aqy BweI mnI isMG vwlI jnmswKI) [ ieM\ hI gurU nwnk swihb hwjIpur ivc ijs jgh gey sn au~Qy “gurduAwrw gwey Gwt” bixAw hoieAw hY [ ijs gurduAwry nUM iekbwl isMG ‘q^q’ kihMdw hY, gurU nwnk swihb qW au~Qy gey hI nhIN sn [ auh hirmMdr swihb qW isr& gurU qyZ bhwdr swihb dy drbwr dI QW sI [ ptnw gurU qyZ bhwdr swihb dw drbwr hox kr ky q^q sI nw ik gurU nwnk swihb jW gurU goibMd isMG swihb kr ky [ ij`Qy, ijs vyly, gurU swihb huMdy sn isr& aus vyly dOrwn hI auh q^q huMdw sI nw ik sdw vwsqy (vyKo ikqwb: Akwl q^q swihb - &ls&w ‘qy qvwrI^, lyKk fw. hrijMdr isMG idlgIr ivc cYptr ‘is`KW dy q^q ikMny hn’) [
qIjw, kI gurU swihb v`loN swls rwey jOhrI dy isr fyF gz dw dsqwrw bMnHx nwl auh bwdSwh bx igAw qy ptny ivc q^q kwiem ho igAw ? qIjw, kI gurU nwnk swihb ^ud q^q ‘qy nhIN sn bYTy Aqy Awpxy huMidAW swls rwey nUM ibTw idqw sI ? gurU nwnk swihb ies mgroN dobwrw hwjIpur nhIN gey, kI auh Awpxy huMidAW q^q nUM iksy hor dy hvwly kr gey sn ? kI aunHW nUM BweI lihxw (gurU AMgd swihb) vI q^q dy kwibl nhIN sn jwpy ? iekbwl isMG muqwibk swls rwey isr& 1508 qk hI jINdw irhw sI [
cOQw, jd gurU nwnk swihb ny AwpxI dsqwr swls rwey nUM bMnH idqI qW kI gurU swihb aus mgroN nMgy isr rhy sn ? ieh vI idlcsp g`l hY ik auh swls rwey nUM p`g bMnHwaux dI Gtnw bwry isr& BweI sMqoK isMG dw hvwlw l`B sky hn [ clo jy ieh mMn vI leIey, qW gurU hirgoibMd swihb v`loN Akwl q^q swihb dw prgt krnw vI qW BweI sMqoK isMG ny (vyKo: gur pRqwp sUrj gRMQ) ivc hI iliKAw hY ijs dI nkl “guriblws pwqSwhI CyvIN” dy ilKwrI ny vI kIqI sI [ ieM\ hI BweI sMqoK isMG AwpxI ilKq ivc qW “rwg mwlw” nUM vI gurU swihb dI ilKq nhIN mMndy (jd ik iekbwl isMG muqwibk “rwg mwlw” gurbwxI hY) [ kI iekbwl isMG “gur pRqwp sUrj gRMQ” nUM mUloN hI r`d krdw hY ? jy iekbwl isMG sMqoK isMG dIAW ilKqW nUM mMndw hY qW (a) “rwg mwlw” gurbwxI nhIN, (A) Akwl q^q swihb gurU hirgoibMd swihb ny prgt kIqw sI qy (e) q^q ptnw swihb dw koeI vjUd nhIN [ pr jy iekbwl isMG BweI sMqoK isMG nUM Zlq mMndw hY qW swls rwey jOhrI vwlI swKI vI s`cI nhIN [
iekbwl isMG muqwibk (s&w 3) ‘dsm gRMQ’ qy ‘srb loh gRMQ’ dohW dI rcnw ptnw swihb dy gRMQI su~Kw isMG ny kIqI sI [ clo auh ieh qW mMndw hY ik ‘dsm gRMQ’ gurU goibMd isMG swihb dw iliKAw nhIN hY pr hYrwnI dI g`l hY ik ies dy bwvjUd vI auh ptnw swihb dy gurduAwry ivc “su`Kw isMG dy ilKy” hoey ‘dsm gRMQ’ dw prkwS gurU gRMQ swihb dy brwbr krdw hY [
iekbwl isMG s&w 5 ‘qy iek hor XHBlI mwrdw hY ik “jy kr prm Kwlsw gurU goibMd isMG jI dw Avqwr-pRkwS ptnw nw huMdw qW Kwlsw pMQ ikvyN pYdw huMdw ?” [ iesy hI s&y dy A^Ir ‘qy ies qoN vI vD “kmwl” dI g`l kihMdw hY ik “ijs is`K ny q^q hirmMdr ptnw jI dy drSn nhIN kIqy aus dw is`K hoxw, is`K khwauxw s&l nhIN ho skdw [” so iekbwl isMG muqwibk mwqw swihb kOr, mwqw suMdr kOr, BweI mnI isMG, bwbw bMdw isMG, bwbw dIp isMG, hzwrW ShId ho cuky is`K Aqy l`KW (Swied kroVW) is`K, jo cVHweI kr cuky hn, s`cI-mu`cI dy jW pUry is`K nhIN sn ikauN ik auh kdy vI ptny nhIN sn jw sky [
iekbwl isMG, s&w 9 ‘qy ,ilKdw hY ik gurU nwnk swihb ny lMgr dI buinAwd ptnw swihb ivKy hI rKI sI [ auh ies dI ihmwieq ivc sohx isMG sIql qy siqbIr isMG dy hvwly vI dyNdw hY [ siqbIr isMG, sIql qy (AKOqI jQydwr) iekbwl isMG iqMny hI kmwl dy ‘KojI’ hn ijnHW ny ptnw qoN lMgr dI SurUAwq mMnI hY [ iekbwl isMG nUM ieh dovyN (jo ilKwrI qW sn pr ieiqhwskwr nhIN sn) vDyry kwbly-ieqbwr jwpdy hn; pr sMqoK isMG, rqn isMG BMgU, krm isMG ihstorIAn, fw. gMfw isMG, fw. idlgIr qy hor ieiqhwskwr (ijnHW nUM dunIAW Br dy ivdvwn is`kybMd ieiqhwskwr mMndy hn) shI nhIN jwpdy, ikauNik ienHW dIAW ilKqW iekbwl isMG nUM rws nhIN AwauNdIAW [
ieh vI kmwl dyKo ik iekbwl isMG ^ud ieh vI mMndw hY ik auh ies q^q dw “pihlw jQydwr” hY (s&w 12-13) [ auh ilKdw hY ik aus nUM suirMdr isMG AwhlUvwlIAw, swbk pRDwn ptnw swihb ny, 15 Agsq 2000 dy idn, “pihlw jQydwr” inXukq kIqw sI (ijvyN mulwzm inXukq kIqy jWdy hn) [ so, iek pwsy auh ptnw swihb nUM “pihlw q^q” mMndw hY qy dUjy pwsy ies dw “pihlw” AKOqI jQydwr, 2000 ivc (suirMdr jIq isMG AwhlUvwlIAW v`loN, pMQ v`loN nhIN) nwmzd kIqw jwxw vI mMndw hY [ iekbwl isMG ilKq ieh lyK ieho ijhIAW byQvHIAW nwl BirAw hoieAw hY [
ies qoN pihlW vI, jUn 2003 ivc jd ies ny mihMdr isMG rumwxw dy i^lw& “AKOqI qn^wh” AYlwn kIqI qW vI ies ny iek 8 s&y dw AYlwn “q^q ptnw” dy pYf ‘qy k`iFAw sI [ ies dy s&w pMj ‘qy aus ny iliKAw sI ik “Akwl q^q qoN kyvl pMjwb dy Dwrimk &Ysly hI huMdy sn [ bwkI swry ihMdusqwn qy bdySW dy &Ysly krn dw AiDkwr kyvl q^q hirmMdr swihb ptnw swihb nUM hI hY… hux qk jo vI q^q ptnw jW hzUr swihb jI dI pRvwngI qoN ibnw hoieAw jW Akwl q^q swihb AMimRqsr qy jo ho irhw hY ieh gurU goibMd isMG jI mhwrwj dy hukm dy ault D`ky-SwhI cl rhI hY…” ieM\ hI iesy ic`TI dy s&w 7 ‘qy ilKdw hY ik jo lok kihMdy hn ik ptnw jW hzUr swihb nUM hukmnwmy jwrI krn dw h`k nhIN hY qy nw iksy nUM qn^whIAw krwr dy skdy hn qy nw iksy nUM pMQ coN Cyk skdy hn " ies qrHW dI ibAwnbwzI krn vwly lokW nUM qW “is`Dw hI Kwlsw pMQ ivcoN Cyk dyxw cwhIdw hY [”
ie`Qy do l&z iekbwl isMG dI S^sIAq bwry kihxy vI ku-QW nhIN hoxgy [ iekbwl isMG pihlW keI hor gurduAwirAW ivc gRMQI irhw sI [aus ny 26 AkqUbr 1985 dy idn dr^wsq dy ky ptnw siwhb ivc sInIAr gRMQI dI nOkrI mMgI sI, ijhVI ik aus nUM ies kr ky iml geI sI ikauN ik aus vyly koeI gRMQI ptnw swihb jwx nUM iqAwr nhIN sI [ pr, ies ip`CoN ies ivcwry nUM bhuq swry hwdsy pyS Awey ijnHW ny Swied aus dI mwnisk hwlq ^rwb kr idqI [ 17 meI 1993 dy idn, kuJ guMfy, aus dI mW nUM byhoS kr ky, aus dI s`kI BYx nUM aus dy GroN cu`k ky lY gey (jo Ajy qk aus ivcwry nUM vwips nhIN iml skI) [ Swied ies hwdsy ny aus dI mwnisk hwlq ‘qy bVw Asr kIqw [ 2000 ivc AwhlUvwlIAw ny aus nUM “q^q ptnw” dw “pihlw jQydwr” nwmzd kr idqw [ pr Ajy ieh ‘AKOqI jQydwrI’ isr& svw swl hI clI sI ik 29 nvMbr 2001 dy idn, ptnw gurduAwry dy mYnyjr bljIq isMG kMg dw 27 swlw puqr, gurdIp isMG aur& ‘golfI’ ies dI pqnI nUM k`F (auDwl) ky lY igAw qy nYpwl jw ky rihx lg ipAw [ ies ny jQydwr vjoN ptnw Qwxw ivc dr^wsq dy ky duhweI pweI ik “mYnUM myrI pqnI vwips idvweI jwvy” [ iekbwl isMG dI ieh dr^wsq ptnw Qwxy ivc drj kys 201/2001 nwl n`QI hY [ dUjy pwsy bljIq isMG kMg ny vI kys drj krvw idqw ik “q^q dy jQydwr” dI pqnI aus dy muMfy nUM auDwl ky lY geI hY [ ies kys ny vI iekbwl isMG dI mwniskqw ‘qy bVw Asr pwieAw Aqy jwpdw hY ik auh idmwZI qvwzun Ko bYTw [
iekbwl isMG ‘mwnisk qOr ‘qy bImwr’ qW hY eI, auh iekbwl isMG AwhlUvwlIAw dw pUrw h`Q-Tokw hY [ AprYl 2003 ivc mihMdr isMG rumwxw (pRDwn ptnw swihb kmytI), iSkwgo (AmrIkw) dy bdnwm fyrydwr, dljIq isMG (pihloN igAwnI, pr hux ‘sMq bwbw’) kol igAw [ au~Qy rumwxw v`loN khy kuJ mwmUlI l&zW nUM bhwnw bxw ky ies ny, 20 meI 2003 dy idn, rumwxw nUM “qn^whIAw” krkr dy idqw Aqy 30 jUn nUM aus nUM “pRDwngI qoN htw” vI idqw [ iekbwl isMg ny ieh frwmw rumwxw dI QW AwhlUvwlIAw nUM pRDwn bxwaux vwsqy kIqw sI [ pr, ies ZYr-kwnUMnI kwrvweI nUM, nw qW pMQ Aqy nw hI srkwr, iksy ny vI kbUl nw kIqw [
(not: jy koeI S^s iekbwl isMG dy lyK jW aus vloN ilKweIAW pulIs irportW jW ^q vyKxw cwhvy, auh lyKk kol vyK skdw hY) [
(fwktr hrijMdr isMG idlgIr)
hsdilgeer@yahoo.com
Tel. (in India) 98158 36970
(igAwnI joigMdr isMG (vydWqI) keI g`lW ‘qy bVI CyqI AYkSn lYNdy hn pr ieh iekbwl isMG qW Akwl q^q nUM q^q hI nhIN mMndw qy aus ny ienHW dy aupr izkr kIqy dohW lyKW ivc gurmiq, qvwrI^, Akwl q^q swihb vZYrw dy i^lw& keI g`lW ilKIAW hn [ smJ nhIN AwauNdI ik igAwnI joigMdr isMG (vydWqI) ies bwry ikauN cup hn ? vyKIey aunHW dI ihMmq qy jurAq !)
ptnw swihb dy v`fy pujwrI (A)igAwnI iekbwl isMG dIAW kuJ ^ws byQvHIAW
ijs is`K ny q^q hirmMdr ptnw jI dy drSn nhIN kIqy aus dw is`K hoxw, is`K khwauxw s&l nhIN ho skdw
‘dsm gRMQ’ qy ‘srb loh gRMQ’
dohW dI rcnw ptnw swihb dy gRMQI su~Kw isMG ny kIqI sI
Akwl q^q qoN kyvl pMjwb dy Dwrimk &Ysly hI huMdy sn [ bwkI swry ihMdusqwn qy bdySW dy &Ysly krn dw AiDkwr kyvl q^q hormMdr swihb ptnw swihb nUM hI hY… hux qk jo vI q^q ptnw jW hzUr swihb jI dI pRvwngI qoN ibnw hoieAw jW Akwl q^q swihb AMimRqsr qy jo ho irhw hY ieh gurU goibMd isMG jI mhwrwj dy hukm dy ault D`ky-SwhI cl rhI hY [
jo lok kihMdy hn ik ptnw jW hzUr swihb nUM hukmnwmy jwrI krn dw h`k nhIN hY qy nw iksy nUM qn^whIAw krwr dy skdy hn qy nw iksy nUM pMQ coN Cyk skdy hn [ ies qrHW dI ibAwnbwzI krn vwly lokW nUM qW “is`Dw hI Kwlsw pMQ ivcoN Cyk dyxw cwhIdw hY” [
