ARCHIVED FORUM: Gurdwara Tapoban Sahib
Why the ignorance?
Posted by : M.Kaur
Date: 7/13/2004 11:14 pm
Waheguru Je Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Je Ke Fateh!
I am sorry of my ignorance but I was really wondering if maintaining such maryada really increase ones Sikhi? My real concern is how would this encourage Sikhs who have not yet been blessed with Amrit to take part of the sangat? I mean if only women wearing dastaars are allowed to serve/make food in the langar hall you are automatically eliminate any kind of active participation from non-dastaar Sikhs.
Did our Guru's not teach us that we are to love all and judge only your own character? They died for different faiths and reached out to all types of people, they did not make Sikhism into an elite faith where few have the privilege to participate. If you really are true believers of the Sikh principle/teaching I believe that more should be done to encourage people to be involved not prevent them from being part of it. It really concerns me that so many different variations of Sikh keep coming up and I really believe it does little to unite us and only makes it easier to prevent Sikhs from ever truly uniting as one common brotherhood.
I apologize if I have caused any hurt with my comments but I really do believe even though I am not the type of person with enough knowledge in Sikhi, I still know I love the basic principles and want to ensure unity.
Sincerely,
M.Kaur
Re: Why the ignorance?
Posted by : ...
Date: 7/14/2004 7:46 am
I agree 100% with this post. This is probably one of the biggest reasons why people are moving away from Sikhi.
How would people get into the fold of Sikhi if they can't do sewa or kirtan. Saying that you can't do sewa or kirtan because you have not shakked amrit or do not follow sarbloh bibek is only damaging the panth.
There is no way that you can get love of guru if you can't serve guru or sing his praises.
Pushing non-Amritdhari people back like this only pushes people away from Sikhi. Also, the practice of not eating food of people who are non-amritdhari does the same thing.
The sad thing is, the people who say that people can't do kirtan or do sewa were most likely once in the same situation as the people who they push away.
Re: Why the ignorance?
Posted by : @@@
Date: 7/14/2004 8:34 am
Vaheguru ji ka khalsa
Vaheguru ji ki fathe
Dear beloved
It is gur -marayada that only amritdhari's prepare langar. the Gurudwara that enforce this should be praised. they are not doign this to put people off. when you look at this practise you should feel inspiried and want ot be like the amritdharis. it's ego inside that makes us think that this is discrimiantion, if you want to do seva clean the toilets, broom teh floors, cleaning the shoes etc... you must understand that certain seva can opnly be doen by amritdharis as guru ji has stated it should be done.
You wanna do the seva = take amrit
simple
So who is ignorant - the person upholidng marayada? or the person who thinks that they know better than Guru ji ?
Vaheguru ji ka khalsa
Vaheguru ji ki fathe
Re: Why the ignorance?
Posted by : Tony Singhprano
Date: 7/14/2004 10:46 am
just cause you take amrit doesn't mean that you have a monopoly on seva
it's views like yours that make the *** come off as arrogent and self-rightious.
i'll clean the toilets because i want to.... not because you let me.
Tony Singhprano
Re: Why the ignorance?
Posted by : P Singh
Date: 7/14/2004 10:54 am
I agree with M.Kaur,
Seems to me as though genuine love for fellow beings usually isn't there.
Re: Why the ignorance?
Posted by : well
Date: 7/14/2004 12:09 pm
maathhay tilak hathh maalaa baanaa
logan raam khilonaa jaanaa
Re: Why the ignorance?
Posted by : stupid
Date: 7/14/2004 12:25 pm
as @@@ person said it is the ego inside which makes us think this way and why people like Singhprano give replies like he has.
funny how we let our western liberal/pc views be the basis of our thinking regarding guru and gurmat.
if u can't be bothered to become gurwale then you have no right speaking in regards to the work we do for the guru.
u people really do get up my nose, the non-amritdahrees have no idea of souchum i have seen this non-respect done on loads of occassions, wanna do sewa take amrit.
and Singhprano when '@@@' veer ji or bhen ji wrote there post they did so respectfully and started with beloved and fateh have some respect and show the same courtesy back when replying.
Re: Why the ignorance?
Posted by : @@@
Date: 7/14/2004 12:32 pm
Rehat bina na Sikh Kahvay
Re: Why the ignorance?
Posted by : Tony Singhprano
Date: 7/14/2004 1:25 pm
"stupid" ..... why single me out for my lack of respect, when their are 5 other posters who have also comitted this violation, including yourself.
i love irony
Tony Singhprano
Re: Why the ignorance?
Posted by : Mkhalsa
Date: 7/14/2004 2:07 pm
>>>I agree 100% with this post. This is probably one of the biggest reasons why people are moving away from Sikhi.
How would people get into the fold of Sikhi if they can't do sewa or kirtan. Saying that you can't do sewa or kirtan because you have not shakked amrit or do not follow sarbloh bibek is only damaging the panth.<<<<
I have a few things in response to this. I have seen groups where they water down sikhi, dont follow strict rehat. I have seen groups where they have 100% rehat and are very strict.
My observations are exactly opposite of yours. When someone comes into a group where most people dont follow rehat, many people are monae, people have no desire to advance and receive no inspiration of gursikhi. In this case they will remain as they were, or just decide to leave such sangat.
on the other hand, when one sees gursikhs involved in seva, receiving them with pyaar but telling them correct rehat, they always get inspired, there are very few who are turned off. Usually when people come in such sangat, they have a desire to keep coming as they want to be just like such gursikhs who live so great.
The people I find who usually argue against rehat are amritdharis or wanna be amritdharis who themselves dont want to advance anymore and are stuck at a point where they are comfortable and just dont care to become anymore a gursikh. they are happy listening to nitnem in the car on their way to work and eating at the restaurant 4 times a week etc. they dont want to advance in gursikhi. These people are filled with ego as they refuse to learn and refuse to accept anything that conflicts with what they want their life to be like.
The people most accepting of rehat and gursikhi are those humble monae and non amritdharis who realize they cant get to such a point at this time but respect gursikhs who have such rehat and even go out of their way to make sure they dont interfere with a gursikhs rehat. I have had an experience where a mona found out about certain rehats I keep and gave me undue respect. The way his face lit up when he thought I am some kind of gursikh, was amazing. But on the other hand, I have had pseudo amritdharis find out about my rehat and start arguments with me, call me a bahman, insult me and my family, start doing nindya.
what can be said for such people?
Re: Why the ignorance?
Posted by : Harpreet Singh
Date: 7/14/2004 6:35 pm
Waheguru ji ka Khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh
If we cannot learn to love another human being and conquer our own humai, then what hope do we have of loving Guru Maharaj who resides in all?
Hating anyone for any reason is hating Guru Maharaj because we have given into our emotions. We are no better than a true manmukh who gives into his urges - emotions.
It doesnt matter if one has taken Amrit, or eats from iron vessels, or wears gigantic turbans or the Ks or does paat and is seen as a 'Gursikh', when one cannot even follow the basic tenants of Sikhism - to see God in all. Without love for fellow humans, there cannot be love for Guru Maharaj. A person hating others has given into his own mind and judges others and has become a person of petty thoughts. Is this not the real Manmukh?
Such a person may look beautiful on the outside and may convince others that he/she is a strong Sikh. But the simple truth is that they are a beautiful looking Manmukh, not a Gursikh at all because they cannot see God in others.
They deceive the eyes of others with their appearance and actions, but not Guru Maharaj.
Re: Why the ignorance?
Posted by : simran_sewa_sacrifice
Date: 7/14/2004 9:15 pm
waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh!!
If I may I would like to say something. I find it funny when people do not wish to move themselves in a higher state of Gursikhi before they accept themselves as candidates for various sewas...rather they would like to lower the bar so to speak. I also think its interesting how when non amritdharees are denied sewa of langar or kirtan some get very upset. I think maybe SOME (not all) get angry becasue if they engaged in sewa that is open to everyone like cleaning bathroom stall no one would see them and be able to praise them thus feeding their ego.
In the end I would like all of us (including myself) that doing most types of sewa is not a right...its is a privilage that Sache Patshah gives to chosen Gursikhs who have offered him their mind, body, and soul.
The rest of the people should wish and aspire to follow the Guru's Path and recieve his blessings for sewa.
-forgive me if i said anything wrong
waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh!!
Re: Why the ignorance?
Posted by : MS
Date: 7/15/2004 2:15 am
Just to add, only certain seva you would encounter where if you were to partake, it would violate the maryada of that particular seva e.g. langar.
theres pleanty of other seva that you can do, cleaning the toilets, shoe seva, etc.. in fact i think i could go on and make a list of 100 or so things you can do.
yet the few things you cannot, many ppl seem unable to comprehend how their participation would violate the maryada of that seva, would you let a non sikh take out a hukamnama, i.e. non sikh being somone who has not even followed the first hukam of guroo sahib i.e. take amrit, then read from guroo sahib to the sangat? a bit hypocrytacal no?
would it be right that a non sikh do kirtan i.e. preaching something that they are not practicing to a basic standard?
as for unity, this isnt going to come by calling for unity or having workshops etc.. unity will only come purly through guroo sahibs blessings. given that fact, how do we then get guroo sahibs blessings? one idea could be to please guroo sahib by following his hukam and all the unity etc.. comes as a result of being close to guroo sahib.
Re: Why the ignorance?
Posted by : stupid
Date: 7/15/2004 3:37 am
Singhprano
my reason for focusing on your post was for the sweeping and agressive (un-informed) statement you made against '@@@'
Re: Why the ignorance?
Posted by : Jarnail Singh Arshi Gyani
Date: 7/15/2004 5:50 am
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki fateh.
We in Malaysia face this same problem..... I have hundreds of friends from other religions.... I have yet to meet a single Catholic who is not following his "maryada" but INSISTING he be allowed to be Altar Boy in Church, help with the sacraments etc. They seem to know their "limits"...NO one objects to them cleaning the church compounds, helping to park the cars of church goers, sweeping the car park, gardening etc etc...
Similarly no MUSLIM aspires to be the IMAM and give Friday lectures from the Mosque Pulpit etc....
BUT our SIKHS are totally Different.....Every Mona, non-Amritdharee, dhilla matha sikh,INSISTS why he is NOT allowed to do this sewa and that sewa...especially the MAJOR ones in GURU DARBAR like Chaur, DEG, HUKM, Kirtan, Katha etc....
Even in an ordinary BUSINESS FIRM where your Father os the Owner...SUCCESSFUL people START at the BOTTOM.... they learn the ropes and slowly move up to the Father's CEO position..... anyone who INSISTS he be made CEO because His father owns the business will DRIVe the business into the ground soon after..
SO to all monas, aspiring amritdharees....veero ate bheno start at the bottom, LOVE the GURU as well the SANGAT..until everyone has no alternative BUT to LOVE you BACK...get to the TOPMOST step of the ladder - be an AMRITDHAREE and start the GURU SEWA in His DARBAR...
I can "identify" with both groups whose mails have appeared above... both have their plus points but the facts are Facts.
There have been incidents in our local gurdwara where the Granthi has been "attacked" even physically by some mona or other who "thinks" that the Giani Ji is attacking him when he speaks of the panj kakakrs and Amrit...Committee members who are MONA immediately take offense at such Parchaar and make attempts to tell the granthi to stop such katha etc which stresses kesh, amrit etc...at one Vasakhi Celebration a Mona boy was given a poem to read which was about amrit and vasakhi 1699...only later did he really "understand" the poem and his mona dad was so angry that the Punjabi teacher was making fun of him by giving his son to read the poem... the boy left the punjabi school the same week !!! The real fear is of "inferiority complex" among these monas.....while some "visible amritdharees" REFUSE to take the Panj Piyara Guffa of Deg because they feel they are UNWORTHY of such an HONOUR..... some MONAS and Dhari Cuttars INSIST they be given this Guffa as they are CHANDA PAYING members of the Gurdwara and why the "discrimination ??"
I am in favour of all welcome in the Guru ghar....BUT the MINIMUM standars of Rehat MUST stand... a free for all will result in chaos. NO RELIGION can allow this free for all in the name of alleged "discriminatiuon"
Dass Jarnail Singh.
Re: Why the ignorance?
Posted by : jagroop singh
Date: 7/15/2004 6:30 am
Vahiguru ji ka khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki fateh!
Veer / Bhain 'simran_sewa_sacrifice ' wrote:
'doing most types of sewa is not a right...its is a privilage that Sache Patshah gives to chosen Gursikhs who have offered him their mind, body, and soul.
The rest of the people should wish and aspire to follow the Guru's Path and recieve his blessings for sewa.'
That is the best i've see this put...the fact that Seva is a privilege not a right. Something about that really does make perfect sense...
The fact that the more we sacrifice ourselves to Siree Guru Sahib Ji, the more Seva we are able to offer. Wow!
Vahiguru ji ka khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki fateh!
