ARCHIVED FORUM: Gurdwara Tapoban Sahib
Sri guru Granth Sahib Ji
Posted by : believer
Date: 7/13/2004 4:05 am
waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh.
Dear sangat,
can a learned veer/bhen ji please state exactly what bani's the Sri Guru Granth sahib contains.
and the differnece between the 3 granths?? y r there 3? y rnt they 1 collective granth.
i don't know much about the granth itself so pls help me learn more about it.
thank you.
bhul chuk marf marni ji.
waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh.
Re: Sri guru Granth Sahib Ji
Posted by : jagroop singh
Date: 7/14/2004 6:11 am
Vahiguru ji ka khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki fateh!
Veer / Bhain 'believer' Ji,
The answer is that at some point, probably around or just before the (maharaja) Ranjit Singh period, the 'Akali Nihungs' decided to place Dasam Granth and Sarbloh Granth upon the SAME pedestal as Siree Guru Sahib Ji. i.e. their Guru consists of 3 granths as opposed to 1.
In my opinion, it seems that these 'Akali Nihungs' did not fully honour Siree Guru Gobind Singh Ji's Sat Bachan which was to only accept Siree Guru Granth Sahib Ji as the Sat Guru.
Incidentally, this period of history is very interesting; in my opinion it was a dark age where Khalsa values were seriously eroded. Thankfully Siree Guru Sahib Ji raised a generation of Sant-Sipahis, including Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh Ji and Baba Attar Singh Ji, who took people back onto the correct path of Sikhi...which is finer than a hair and narrower than a blade.
Hope ths helps.
Vahiguru ji ka khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki fateh!
Re: Sri guru Granth Sahib Ji
Posted by : Harpreet Singh
Date: 7/14/2004 7:36 am
Waheguru ji ka Khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh
Veer Jagroop Singh
For a while now I have been observing your posts, some of which are excellent. It seems you have a serious issue with 'Akali Nihungs' and 'Nihungs' in general. Sometimes there even appears to be signs that you wish to exact some revenge on them. Also, many of your posts lack any credible evidence to support your theories/accusations. Maybe its time to start being more objective and less emotional?
If you wish to continue slating fellow Sikhs on these forums, maybe you should also provide some evidence to support your views. Otherwise this is nothing but ninda, not becoming of any Sikh of the Guru. I have heard that the 'Nihungs' have insulted Shaheeds of the Panth. Is this an excuse to follow their behaviour and insult them? If this is the case, we are no better than them.
Speaking from a personal point of view, the 'Akali Nihungs' have done great service to Sikhi by ensuring the Gurbani of Dasam Patshah does not leave the Panth. At least they continue Prakash of Dasam Granth Sahib and Sarbloh Granth Sahib; more than can be said of many other groups within the Sikh Panth. Rather than going against Guru Maharaj's Hukam, as you suggest, I feel they have honoured it by keeping Guru Maharaj's Banni alive.
We may not agree with 'Akali Nihung' practices, but instead of looking at the ugly side (as seems to be the tendency of 'Gursikhs' today) maybe we should look at the positives.
I do not mean any disrespect but please also note that Sikhi was very much alive prior to the arrival of Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh. Jagroop Singh, please do not think that Sikhi revolves around individuals. It belongs to Guru Maharaj and isnt under a monopoly of any one jatha.
Waheguru ji ka Khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh
H Singh
Re: Sri guru Granth Sahib Ji
Posted by : jagroop singh
Date: 7/14/2004 9:02 am
Vahiguru ji ka khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki fateh!
Dear Veer Harpreet Singh Ji,
Please may i address your post point-by-point because i feel the issues you have raised can only be adequately addressed in this manner.
You wrote:
'It seems you have a serious issue with 'Akali Nihungs' and 'Nihungs' in general'.
> When you say 'serious issue' do you mean regarding Bhang...well YES, i think it is anti-Gurmat. Perhaps you could elaborate regarding any other issues that i 'seem' to have with them.
You wrote:
'Sometimes there even appears to be signs that you wish to exact some revenge on them'
> i wish to exact no 'revenge' on them or anyone for that matter; again, i do not understand what you mean by this reference to 'revenge'; perhaps you could elaborate Veer ji?
You wrote:
'Also, many of your posts lack any credible evidence to support your theories/accusations. Maybe its time to start being more objective and less emotional'
> Please tell me which post/theories/accusations you mean, the reasons why you feel they lack credible evidence and i will do my best to provide you with my reasoning.
Until then it would be defficult for me to pre-empt what you mean...and i do go on a bit if left to my own devices! As for being less emotional...i don't feel all that emotional really (i.e. angry/heated-up etc.).
You wrote:
'If you wish to continue slating fellow Sikhs on these forums, maybe you should also provide some evidence to support your views. Otherwise this is nothing but ninda, not becoming of any Sikh of the Guru.'
> Veer ji, perhaps you are referrign to this statement i made: 'In my opinion, it seems that these 'Akali Nihungs' did not fully honour Siree Guru Gobind Singh Ji's Sat Bachan which was to only accept Siree Guru Granth Sahib Ji as the Sat Guru'. Please tell me how i have 'slated' anyone...where i have done anyone's nindia (i.e. hurtful gossip). i still stand by this statement.
You wrote:
'I have heard that the 'Nihungs' have insulted Shaheeds of the Panth. Is this an excuse to follow their behaviour and insult them? If this is the case, we are no better than them'.
> You are correct; from what i understand, they have insulted many Shaheeds of the Panth - anyway, their websites have gone through some convenient 'editing' so much of this material is no longer there. So much for declaring the 'Truth' no matter who it offends; this being the gist of a quote that adorns at least one of their sites.
On a secondary note, although Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh isn't a Shaheed Singh, they still carry material which i personally find offensive regarding him. If you want, i can provide the statement and it's direct source as well as my thoughts as to why it is offensive.
Also, i do not understand where i have 'insulted' them. Please explain.
You wrote:
'Speaking from a personal point of view, the 'Akali Nihungs' have done great service to Sikhi by ensuring the Gurbani of Dasam Patshah does not leave the Panth'.
> Veer ji, i absolutely agree. Also, non-'Akali Nihungs' such as Baba Gurbachan Singh ji also did a great service by elucidating on these texts...i remember a prominent poster of this forum mentioning how amazing his works regariding this scholarly area are.
You wrote:
'At least they continue Prakash of Dasam Granth Sahib and Sarbloh Granth Sahib; more than can be said of many other groups within the Sikh Panth'
> You are absolutely correct; not all 'groups' within the Panth do so. Whether this is negative/positive is an entirely seperate matter which would relate more to issues surrounding whether or not Dasam Granth and Sarbloh Granth should have been given the same status as Siree Guru Granth Sahib Ji by 'Akali Nihungs'. That is of course an entirely seperate issue.
You wrote:
'Rather than going against Guru Maharaj's Hukam, as you suggest, I feel they have honoured it by keeping Guru Maharaj's Banni alive'.
> If you mean 'honoured it' by keeping historical sources alive then as i stated earlier yes, i would agree. However, where i differ is regarding the way in which two other texts have been accorded the same status as Siree Guru Granth Sahib Ji; composite sections of Siree Guru Sahib Ji as it were.
This is because i have seen no evidence even remotely suggesting that this was Siree Guru Gobind Singh Sahib Ji's will/hukam...quite the opposite in fact. On one of their sites they aknowledge, via quoting a 'Sanaatan Sikh', that it was the 'Akali Nihungs' who accorded these texts this status and NOT Siree Guru Gobind Singh Sahib Ji.
So the question is, as i raised on SikhSangat.com (a thread you may have read by now), when should the cart lead the horse when it comes to such issues as paramount as deciding 'who and what' our Siree Guru Sahib Ji 'consists' of?
You wrote:
'We may not agree with 'Akali Nihung' practices, but instead of looking at the ugly side (as seems to be the tendency of 'Gursikhs' today) maybe we should look at the positives.'
> Veer Ji, i think that's a great idea; if you start another thread we can do so. Perhaps we can do this so as to change the 'Gursikhs' tendencies.
You wrote:
'I do not mean any disrespect but please also note that Sikhi was very much alive prior to the arrival of Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh'.
> i would say that i already have but will certainly take 'note' of this again. Sikhi is beyond any individual - Akal Purkh Ki Fauj. Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh was simply a great Sevadaar of the Panth; nothing more, nothing less...by his own admission.
You wrote:
'Jagroop Singh, please do not think that Sikhi revolves around individuals. It belongs to Guru Maharaj and isnt under a monopoly of any one jatha'
> i don't think this Veer Ji. Please can you give me the reasoning behind why you think this may be the way i personally 'think'.
Sorry for the long post - as i said earlier dear Veer ji, i do go on a bit!
Vahiguru ji ka khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki fateh!
Re: Sri guru Granth Sahib Ji
Posted by : Harpreet Singh
Date: 7/14/2004 12:18 pm
Waheguru ji ka Khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh
Veerji, I do not wish to argue with you on the forum. I neither have the time, nor the patience. I am a family man with children. I come here occasionally to read what people write to enhance my own knowledge of Sikhi.
Maybe you should take these issues up with the Nihung Singhs themselves as I am no expert.
I visited them with my daughters in Slough, and found them to be open, direct and full of information. Some aspects I did not agree with, such as taking of cannabis and eating meat, but they respected my opinion, and they gave me enough evidence to explain their traditions. I was suitably impressed and it was evident that I was not in the presence of drug addicts. They stated that if anyone wishes to challenge the information on the websites that they are willing to meet anyone and that the encounter will be filmed and recorded for proof. A very sensible approach to a mutually beneficial increase in knowledge to all parties.
Their lifestyle, although colourful and fantastic in its glory is not to my liking due to my comparatively passive character. However, I have chosen to avoid speaking ill of them or insult them simply because I do not agree with their practices.
I was brought up to respect people's views and allow them the freedom to practice what faith they see fit to follow. The Nihung Singhs are providing information. By having a website, they have allowed us the freedom to choose whether to accept it, ignore it, or question it sensibly. I am sure we are all adults and sensible enough to realise that everyone has the freedom to worship as they please.
As far as I am concerned, Baani is the Guru, and Guru is the Baani. I happen to believe that Dasam Granth Sahib ji and Sarbloh Granth Sahib Ji are writings of our Tenth Master. This is a matter of my personal faith for my Guru and not a subject open for debate either on a forum, or by politicians. I have chosen to learn from what there is, which is the way of a Sikh
Re: Sri guru Granth Sahib Ji
Posted by : Mkhalsa
Date: 7/14/2004 1:56 pm
Harpreet Singh,
Singhs have met their challenges many times. The nangs just run away. what can be said for such cowards?
regarding they seem sensible, they make up their own history as they go along. Create their own lineages and sakhis. Make up quotes from gursikhs, miscontrue and misquote gurbani.
What good can come from such people? what good can come from someone who has openly called shaheed bhai fauja singh a nang?
Re: Sri guru Granth Sahib Ji
Posted by : Jarnail Singh Arshi Gyani
Date: 7/14/2004 7:36 pm
Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki fateh.
IMHO this "creating hstory" and "direct lineages to Guur Sahibaans, their Sahibzadas, the Panj Piyaras" etc etc goes on in many deras websites sant/baba sites.... Everybody seems to have a go at linking his own bab sant dera to GURU JI Himself. Self created stories, sakhis with fake pictures etc abound....
Some sites carry DIFFERENT information in English site and Punjabi Site - a sure give away that the info is false so as to cater to two different sets of viewers..
True history is going to be very difficult to save...especially now that the GOI has every scrap of paper that was in the Sikh reference Library..."doctored" texts are going to resurface regulalrly. Just the other day I read a news report of a Handwritten 312 Year Old Guru Granth Saroop found in a "shardhaloo's house"...what was the shardhaloo doing all this while ?? sleeping ?? I hope the Gurbani in this saroop "suddenly discovered" is the same as those we all have..OR.....new issues will creep up on us...
Dass jarnail Singh
Re: Sri guru Granth Sahib Ji
Posted by : jagroop singh
Date: 7/15/2004 4:05 am
Vahiguru ji ka khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki fateh!
Veer Harpreet Singh Ji,
i sincerely did not wish to argue with you via my 'super-log post' - i just wished to plainly answer some of your queries and to avoid confusion.
i have met several of them including their 'Gurdev'. Singh Ji, i hold NO enmity towards them whatsoever; i have said elsewhere that i found their 'Gurdev' perfectly amicable, reasonable etc. In fact i have even stated that i obtained an element of Sikhi from him; i am thankful to Vahiguru that i was given the chance to take these issues up with him directly.
Equally, the students i have met seemed the same. The questions/issues i have raised were responded to...therefore i am satisfied. In fact, i attended several lessons at the Slough Akhara as a means by which to sample their philosophy.
Incidentally, i like you also do not agree with Chatka and Bhang; however, it does not 'anger' me that this is part of their tradition.
However, the one action of their's which was ENTIRELY INNAPPROPRIATE was, as Veer Mkhalsa ji has stated above, the extent to which they went to in order to discredit Shaheed Singhs, AKJ, Babbar Khalsa, Kharkoos etc. Blanket statements and misinformation abounded in these cases...
However, they are entitled to their opinions...just as i am, equally, to mine. i have simply stated my opinions and the reasoning behind them. i have not called any one of them a Nang, Patit etc.
Veer ji, even though i am very far from Gursikhi, i have learnt never to dislike a person...even if i dislike their reasoning.
Vahiguru ji ka khalsa, Vahiguru ji ki fateh!
