ARCHIVED FORUM: Gurdwara Tapoban Sahib
Did Indians support killing of the Sikhs?
Posted by : Insaaf Singh
Date: 7/07/2004 3:30 pm
A lot of Indian apologists argue that the Congress(I) has had an anti-Sikh policy but the general Hindu population respects and loves the Sikhs. Operation Bluestar,Operation Woodrose, November 1984, police brtuality in Punjab and the systematic killing of the Sikh youth in Punjab, is all the work of the Congress(I) and the Nehru dynasty. And the Hindus have just been duped into following the gruesome agenda of the Congress (I). Is this really the case? A new report released by a human rights organization, Ensaaf (http://www.ensaaf.org/body-1984report.pdf)gives evidence that points to the contrary. It discusses the role of the Indian police force, media, public and the Congress Party in the November 1984 massacre. Chapter 5 of the report is very disturbing because it describes in detail role of the Indian electorate in supporting the killing of Sikhs. Some of the highlights below:
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Prakash Kaur a Punjabi Teacher at Delhi university described how children threw rotten food into her courtyard after the massacre and her colleagues at work joked about the Sikh massacre saying "These people should be grabbed by their judis, whirled around, and beaten up thoroughly" "What is a Sikh Kebaab? A burnt Sikh."
Papers in 15 languages in India carried advertisements showing barbed wire and asking "Will the border move to your doorstep" and "Why should you feel uncomfortable riding in a taxi driven by a taxi driver who belongs to a different state?"
Instead of condemning the massacre the Indian population supported it...according to a person interveiwed by the reporter Dhiren Bhagat, "Go to the villages and they are saying 'aur kyoon nahin maara Sikhon ko' (Why did they not kill more Sikhs?)...people will say 'acha kiya Congress nay' (Congress did well)
A poll done by Illustrated Weekly during Nov 20 to Nov 25 indicated that 72% of people in the Hindu heartland felt that because of Indira gandhi's assasination Congress had improved its chances of winning re-election. 70% to 80% of those polled praised the Congress leadership.
On Dec 27 1984, after the shortest campaign in India's history, the Congress won 401 out of 508 seats in India's history. Lalit Maken got 60% of the votes in South Delhi. HKL Bhagat got 386,150 votes and his closest contender got only 73,970 votes. Jagdish Tytler got twice as many votes as his nearest opponent Madan Lal Khurana.
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Re: Did Indians support killing of the Sikhs?
Posted by : baldeep
Date: 7/09/2004 6:10 am
who knows what is true and what feelings resided in the hearts of the population during the 80s all i know is that if feelings of hatred and murder did fester then i hope they reap there just rewards.....
but let us first address the sikhs who sold the panth out and are still doing so....
Re: Did Indians support killing of the Sikhs?
Posted by : STOPSINGH
Date: 7/09/2004 7:37 am
>>A poll done by Illustrated Weekly during Nov 20 to Nov 25 indicated that 72% of people in the Hindu heartland felt that because of Indira gandhi's assasination Congress had improved its chances of winning re-election. 70% to 80% of those polled praised the Congress leadership.
And since those days the Congress has fallen to its lowest ebb. Even today it is only in power due to a very shoddy coallition. So it does not have the backing of the majority of the Indian population despite its dirty deeds.
The Ensaaf report may make all them points but there were many cases of Sikhs being helped by their Hindu neighbours during the 1984 riots so lets not tarnish them all with the same brush. I was listening to a discussion on Amrit Bani radio station yesterday and many callers phoned in and they echoed the sentiment that just becasue of a few rotten apples who happened to be hindus we should not label them all as bad, various callers went on to mention how their relatives were helped by hindu neighbours who gave them shelter from the murderers during the 84 riots.
Re: Did Indians support killing of the Sikhs?
Posted by : A Singh
Date: 7/09/2004 10:50 am
Insaaf Singh,
According to the facts you present, the poll done by Illustrated Weekly during Nov 20 to Nov 25 indicated that 72% of people in the Hindu heartland felt that because of Indira gandhi's assasination Congress had improved its chances of winning re-election. 70% to 80% of those polled praised the Congress leadership.
Whilst I share in your despising of the Congress policies and gospel of hate that followed in the 1980s and beyond, I have to ask, what about the 20 - 30% of those polled under the above mentioned "particular" poll who didn't side with Congress or support their anti-Sikh policies?
Please answer this fully. A similar long thread exists on the AKJ forum and in the end no-one was able to address this, instead all emotions were directed to arguing that "the majority of them hate us, so we hate them all" and claim it is Gurmat to do so with their "blood for blood" type slogans.
May I remind you that the situation is no different to what has always happend to Sikhs in our short history -we have always sufferred such set backs and come back on top form, yet look at the times of Guru Gobind Singh, when the vast majority of Moghuls and Hindoo Hill Rajas were against the Sikhs and severe wars were waged, still none of broad brushing occurred given the Rajput and Muslim allies that Guru Sahib also had in addition to the other elements of civilian population he defended.
Baldeep, if asking the above qualifies me as a sell-out in your opinion, please do elaborate as to why you feel this to be the case, for where have I or others who ask the same question, "sold-out"?
Re: Did Indians support killing of the Sikhs?
Posted by : Insaaf Singh
Date: 7/09/2004 12:55 pm
A Singh,
I did not and do not suggest that we should "hate them all." And I don't think that I will ever suggest such a thing. There certainly were Hindus and Muslims who sheltered Sikhs and some have opposed the Congress (I)'s anti-Sikh policies. But the evidence shows us that the majority of Indians did support Operation Bluestar and the killing of Sikhs in November 1984. Sikhs should know that the majority of Indians were either apathetic or in favour of the killings. You have made a straw man out of my argument by bringing up the issue of hating all Hindus. That is not the point and nor was it intended to be.
Re: Did Indians support killing of the Sikhs?
Posted by : baldeep
Date: 7/09/2004 4:26 pm
A Singh
are you feeling neglected or do you require some attention, because that is the only reason i can see for your post and question to me thinking you maybe a sell out?
my reply was direct at people who wanted to hurt members of the panth and any retribution to be served by waheguru, he is all knowing of all hearts..
panth members who sold us out, surley you dont need me to tell you? but judging by your post i think you do need to be told, badal tohra etc...
and no my post was not painting all hindus as bad only the ones who murdered and raped and supported..
next time think clearly before you type a reply and read the posts slowly they will make more sense to you, and you may save yourself from looking like an idiot.
Re: Did Indians support killing of the Sikhs?
Posted by : Jarnail Singh Arshi Gyani
Date: 7/11/2004 7:15 am
Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki fateh.
The whole "support" idea stems from the fact that the Indira Govt started a FULL TIME CAMPAIGN to malign the SIKHS a long long time BEFORE 1984... IN 1947 itself Jawahrlala nehru sent out an Official Govt Circular stating SIKHS are a lawless people and MUST OT be allowed to settle in Punjab ( Kapur Singh ICS was viliified because he let the cat out of the bag regarding this Circular which he got as Amritsar DC.).
It is a fact that everytime the Akalis got ready to Compromise ...INDIRA would BACK OUT and accuse them of creating "new issues" !!..
The Dharam yudh Morcha in 1984 was starting to shake the Indira Govt to its roots...that is why the Bluesatar was undertaken to finish off the sikhs once and for all...when this failed....and the BIG TREE FELL....Rajiv tried to finish the Job his great ancestor Mir Mannu failed to do.
BUT MIR MANNU had one great DISADVANTAGE...the SIKHS of his time were ALL UNITED and had NO TRAITORS.....after 1947...there are MORE SIKH TRAITORS and BOOT LICKERS licking the boots of the Authorities in DELHI... than there are Genuine SIKHS..... thats where we lose it bigtime. No matter what we do the boot lickers like badloo gang, chandok gang, captains and jathedars, fake sants and babas, Mahapurashs and mahamoorakhs, deras and derawallahs, etc etc are more than ready to PUT OIL in our ROOTS and deliver us like tied sheep to Delhi.
Due to the propoganda not only Indians but the WORLD believes SIKHS are Terrorists, trouble makers, rabble rousers, unruly, lawless.....
It is alosing battle...BUT I beleive the tide is turning.... the INTERNET is a Powerful New Medium for us to put our truth forward...and no power on earth can stop this...slowly the world is beginning to understand the beauty of Sikhism and its followers...and the lies of Delhi are losing ground day by day.....that is why DELHI is now concentrating on spreading RSS derawaddi brahminism into SIKHISM to make us into DASTAARDHARI HINDUS. This is the New Battleground....and anyone who tries to put forward the correct Sikh Viewpoint is immediately condemned and efforts are made to shut him up..VISAS to do parchaar are only given to known sants babas mahapurashs who toe the Govt line of RSS hinduisation of Sikhism... More and More MARBLE gurdwaras replacing Historical buildings and heritage places being destroyed. More aND mORE EMPTY rituals...501 SIMULTANEOUS AKHAND PAATHS, 50001 SIMULTANEOUS SUKHMANI SAHIB PAATHS...etc etc..kirtan darbars, Naggar kirtans etc etc but no real gurbani vichaar, katha, or attempt to explain gurbani to youth...
Dass Jarnail Singh
Re: Did Indians support killing of the Sikhs?
Posted by : A Singh
Date: 7/12/2004 9:49 am
Insaaf Singh,
Thanks for getting back to me, I am not accusing you individually of fostering "hate them all" relations, but as indicated point towards the numerous threads upon threads that can be found on all Sikh websites using the same or similar evidence that you presented and eventually turn this way, which is a real shame, for it only adds to the existing false stereo-types that exist of Sikhs.
As I indicated, I share in the communal feeling of all Sikhs worth their salt against the Congress political powerhouse and their views and treatment of Sikhs, however this 'knee-jerk' reaction which I allude to concerning "Hindus" as a whole, has been found on all discussions on this front, which brings out some rather unsavoury ideals held by some Sikhs today...
...rather like my asking a simple question to Bhai Baldeep Singh to clarify who he referred to in his post for the likes of me as a lesser informed poster, resulted in me receiving a hostile response in which he sees fit to brand me an idiot and an attention-seeker, nonetheless I know understand his post a lot better and also the general discussion tones to expect from now on.
Jarnail Singh Bhaji, I liked your post which was contructed in a useful and clear way with logical arguments coming through -Thank you for this helpful insight.
Re: Did Indians support killing of the Sikhs?
Posted by : dalla makablahhhhh
Date: 7/12/2004 10:05 am
well are the jews all guilty of killin christ? are all christians guilty of christian crusades today? are all muslims guilty of moghul excesses on sikhs? thats how flawed your logic is.
no one buys this line of thought anymore as we are living in multi ethnic societies we learn more about other people. This ostracism fear is not as big as it once was hence people question within the within if you get me.
if you say muslims hate sikhs, we look back and scan all the muslims we have come across and undertsand you get some reallynice people who we have grown up with and many bad people same for hindus and indians.
to say indians support that is silly, i conversed with an srm activist from punjab who spent time in tamil nadu before 84 notified me before 1984 the tamils and madrassis were fully in support of sikhs. however the media twisted the words of sikh leaders in a communalist way. the sikh movement had quite a few faces from other parts of india who converted to sikhi from far away places like bihar bhaiiyas and fought alongside punjabi singhs. its very difficult to say what went on in a countrywide scale.
nevertheless an atrocity genocide of a shrewd manner and deserves never to be forgotten.
see nowdays a lot of people take up phycology courses and look behind the meanings of these messages and what their purposes are. we r not gullible pindus anymore.
Re: Did Indians support killing of the Sikhs?
Posted by : baldeep
Date: 7/12/2004 12:19 pm
A Singh
all i can say is that it is amusing to read your post, if you would kindly re-read your inital first post then maybe you will understand from where exactly i was coming from in my reply to you, there is nothing further to say.
