ਪ੍ਰਥਮਰਹਿਤਯਹਿਜਾਨਖੰਡੇਕੀਪਾਹੁਲਛਕੇ॥ ਸੋਈਸਿੰਘਪ੍ਰਧਾਨਅਵਰਨਪਾਹੁਲਜੋਲਏ॥

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soul and mind
Posted by: baba amarjeet singh (IP Logged)
Date: April 07, 2008 07:52AM

how do the soul and the mind differ?
in gurbani the mind is often refered to as "man" and soul as jeea, or jeeara.
however in the tuk, man too jot saroop hai apna mool pachhan, i am confused, because how can the mind be the embodiment of vahiguru? the mind is polluted, and dirty is it not? what about the soul? can the soul become polluted?

paapi jeeara lobh karat hai aaj kaal uth jaahiga

in this tuk, the soul is being called sinful, correct? but i thought the soul was like a drop of the ocean, but separated from the ocean, so it is part of maharaaj, how can it therefore become polluted?
when we die, what goes to be judged? the soul or the mind? what goes to the different khands, or hell, or heavens?

if anyone could please clear this up for me i would be very grateful

 



Re: soul and mind
Posted by: gsingh (IP Logged)
Date: April 07, 2008 08:48AM

somebody please correct me if i'm wrong...

in my understanding the jot of vahiguru is in us, and is completely pure, nirmal. The rest of our body, antah karan - man, budh, chit, hankaar,, sookham sareer and asthool sareer are all jarr or inert. There are like a light bulb and need electricty (the jot) to come and make them work.

What we call a jeev or jeeara in bani is not the jot of akaal purkh, but instead is when the jot and budhi meet. The jot is pure, but the budhi isnt, the budhi can only be pure once it understands that its true form is jot saroop.

our mind is what does snkalp/vikalp. In my understanding it is jot saroop just like everything else. Everything is jot saroop, without the jot of vahiguru everything else is jarr. Only vahiguru is chetan (conscious). Once the mind realizes that there is nothing except god, it will also become pure.


Last point, English translations suck, learn what the words mean in their native language.


PS: what I posted here is all learned from katha, unless i misunderstood the katha....

perhaps mahapurkhaan di katha really isnt that bad to listen to??

 



Re: soul and mind
Posted by: kulbir singh (IP Logged)
Date: April 07, 2008 04:08PM

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how do the soul and the mind differ?
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The Atma is made of same material as Vaheguru jee. Atma never dies and was never born. Atma never gets stained and it never gets dukh or sukh. Mann on the other hand seems to be a counterfeit of Atma and suffers as a result of being away from Atma. Mann is really jyot saroop i.e. Atma saroop but thinks of itself as material and this is why it suffers. When mann engages in Naam Abhyaas, it moves towards Atma and away from corporeal world.

Jeev Atma is composed of Antashkaran and Atma. Antakshkaran includes mann, Budhi, Chit, surat etc. Various scholars have made various divisions of the Antashkaran. Many times in Gurbani, Antashkaran is referred to as mann too.


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in gurbani the mind is often refered to as "man" and soul as jeea, or jeeara.
however in the tuk, man too jot saroop hai apna mool pachhan, i am confused, because how can the mind be the embodiment of vahiguru?
-----------

Mind is actually jyot saroop and with Naam Abhyaas it realizes it’s reality and becomes one with Atma.


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the mind is polluted, and dirty is it not? what about the soul? can the soul become polluted?
-------------

Mind is polluted and dirty as long as it does not give up its corporeal sense which is also called Haume. And no, Atma cannot become polluted.


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paapi jeeara lobh karat hai aaj kaal uth jaahiga

in this tuk, the soul is being called sinful, correct?
-----------

Here jeeara is referred to Jeev-Atma and not Atma alone. Jeev Atma is mann, budhi, matt, chit, Atma etc and not Atma alone. Gurbani never gives any hukam to Atma because Atma is already free. All hukams are for Mann or Antashkaran.

I could be wrong. This is just my understanding. Baaki Naam jap ke pata lagoo.

Kulbir Singh

 



Re: soul and mind
Posted by: Atma Singh (IP Logged)
Date: April 08, 2008 04:50AM

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹ

sadhsangat jeeo,

in sukhmanee sahib, i think there is a panktee which specifically refers to the soul of papeeaa(n), not their minds, being dirty or black due to the paapaa(n) committed. i am most probabaly wrong and may have relied upon a dodgy translation to arrive at such a meaning.

next time maharaaj jee blesses me with sukhmanee sahib, i will try to remember to make a note of this panktee and post it for discussion.

ps - very interesting topic; let's keep posting more posts like these on the forum.

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ

ਦਾਸ,
ਆਤਮਾ ਸਿੰਘ

 



Re: soul and mind
Posted by: singh05 (IP Logged)
Date: April 08, 2008 04:32PM

can anyone explain the the meanings of mann, Budhi, Chit, surat and the word Antashkaran

 



Re: soul and mind
Posted by: Harinder Singh (IP Logged)
Date: April 08, 2008 06:36PM

<< can anyone explain the the meanings of mann, Budhi, Chit, surat and the word Antashkaran>>

I feel japping naaam is the best way to know such things. Having said that discussing these things is not wrong either.
I feel these days singhs might be doing an over-dose of reading/discussing complex things like dasam duaar, karmas, mann, budhi, chit, antashkaran, kanwal, gurbani grammar, gurmani meanings.
all the vadiyayian are within the gurmat naam.
this naam is the form of akal purakh and even a complete moorakh suffering from intellectual impairment can become a zabardast scholar by rubbing the surti with the gurmantar.
insaan chahe jyot vigaasi hove jan dasam duaari, banda kuch ve nahin hai
Sab kuch Satguru Jee nee
The reason I am writing this is that I feel lots of new amritdharis instead of doing bholi gurmantar bhagti(and automatically becoming scholars,gurbani linguist, warriors, saints) might start to become scholars out of their own force or might start to treat other scholars as mahapurash(in reality we all are beggars)
RAJ KAREGA KHALSA

 



Re: soul and mind
Posted by: sidhu.hcl (IP Logged)
Date: April 08, 2008 09:01PM

"mann tu jyot sarup hain, apna mool pachan" i think here the "mann" is regarded as "Soul" that is immortal, never gets stain, its aim to get submerged into jyot of VAHEGURU.

"jyoti jot rali saampoorn thiya raam" this is the final aim for all souls

 



Re: soul and mind
Posted by: sidhu.hcl (IP Logged)
Date: April 08, 2008 09:13PM

i think mann is refered as soul and sometimes to express the poetry sence it is regarded as mind.

Otherwise i think mind dont have anything to do with naam simran, mind is on the other hand tht creates obtacles. in the world of god "mann" and faith has given more importance thn ur brain.

 



Re: soul and mind
Posted by: Atma Singh (IP Logged)
Date: April 09, 2008 03:52AM

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹ

khalsa jeeo,

i just searched sukhmanee sahib via MS Word for the word 'soul' and i'm pretty sure this must be the panktee i was thinking of (found in 10th Ashtpadee, 2nd verse):

ਕਈਕੋਟਿਕਿਰਪਨਕਠੋਰ ॥
kee kott kirupun kuthor ||
Many millions are stone-hearted misers.

ਕਈਕੋਟਿਅਭਿਗਆਤਮਨਿਕੋਰ ॥
kee kott abhig aathum nikor ||
Many millions are heartless, with dry, withered souls.

re: the 1st tuk: the pad-ched and meanings are as per sttm (i.e. bhaee sant singh trans. i think...?) and via checking mahan-kosh seem accurate, imho.

re: the 2nd tuk: definitions:
ਅਭਿਗ: ਵਿ- ਜੋ ਭਿੱਜੇ ਨਾ। (2) ਕਠੋਰਮਨ. ਸੰਗਦਿਲ। (3) ਸੰ. अभिज्ञ- ਅਭਿਗ੍ਯ. ਵਿ- ਚੰਗੀ ਤਰ੍ਹਾਂ ਜਾਣਨ ਵਾਲਾ. ਪੂਰਾ ਵਾਕਿਫ਼। (4) ਚੇਤਨ ਆਤਮਾ.

ਨਿਕੋਰ: ਸੰ. ਨਿਕਰ. {ਸੰਗ੍ਯਾ}. ਸਮੂਹ। (2) ਰਾਸ਼ਿ. ਢੇਰ। (3) ਵਿ- ਖ਼ਾਲਿਸ. ਨਿਰੋਲ. "ਸਪੈ ਦੁਧੁ ਪਿਆਈਐ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਵਿਸੁ ਨਿਕੌਰ". (ਸੂਹੀ ਅਃ ਮਃ ੩)। (4) ਮੂਲੋਂ ਕੋਰਾ. ਜਿਸ ਉੱਤੇ ਕੋਈ ਅਸਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੋਇਆ. ਦੇਖੋ, ਅਭਿਗਆਤਮ.

bhaee kahn singh has, very conveniently for us, literally repeated two of the last three words of this tuk at the end of his definition (ਅਭਿਗਆਤਮ) - interestingly, he has also indirectly stated that pad-ched of these two words should not be done; that they are one term.

it seems that ਅਭਿਗਆਤਮਨਿਕੋਰ refers to a soul upon which nothing really has an effect, a soul which for whatever reasons has become desensitised to spiritual positivity, to bhagtee to pyaar etc.

imho, this refers to those papeeaa(n) who have so much negative karmaa(n) that they have literally 'cut themselves off' from any aatmic connection with their soul. however, does this mean that it is the soul which has become desensitised or that the relationship between their mind and their soul is 'poor' and 'ineffectual' hence an 'ineffectual, withered' soul?

i think the latter is probably more likely since aatma is obviously vaheguroo roop and can therefore never be overcome by any kind of energy/force.

ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖ਼ਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫ਼ਤਹਿ

ਦਾਸ,
ਆਤਮਾ ਸਿੰਘ

 



Re: soul and mind
Posted by: Harinder Singh (IP Logged)
Date: April 09, 2008 11:34PM

<< < can anyone explain the the meanings of mann, Budhi, Chit, surat and the word Antashkaran>>

I feel if u ask this question to a saintly brahamgyani like Bhai SAhib Randhir Singh jee he might answer "kaka naam japp" hahahahaha
and if u ask this question to a nihungi brahamgyani baba mitt singh(dhan dhan dhan dhan dhan dhan dhan dhan dhan Baba Mitt Singh jee), he might beat u with his dandaa or gandaasssaaa, hahahahaha
What a play
TERA ANT NA PARAVARIYAAA.

 



Re: soul and mind
Posted by: inderjeet1012 (IP Logged)
Date: April 10, 2008 07:21PM

can u tell me more about baba mitt singh jee???????

 





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