dashmesh_regiment actually i can debate and trying to insult me doesn't work im not going to let you bail that easily, remember i asked for you to provide references about the two gurdwaras taht you claim were attacked, you know evidence cause i could tell you that soldiers came into operation bluestar delivering ppl ladoo but you would know thats false cause their no evidence.

Forget the 40 gurdwaras named give me evidence for the two you named. You know something i can research to confirm is true.

dashmesh_regiment i have read books thats why i schooled you and everyone else in here.

Ill admit that i was wrong on the white papers being myth but can't blame me with so many urban myth regarding the 80's around, especially the myth between the relationship between indira gandhi and rss cause more then one sikh website makes these claims and make fake newspaper articles trying to say that rss loved indria gandhi like god and wanted to kill the sikhs for killing her, funny thing was rss always wanted to kill her.
But sikhlionz and sikhhistory and other websites would make fake newspapers for idiots like you who believe them.

inderjeet, bhindranwale stayed out of harmandar sahib indira gandhi would of bin forced to abort operation bluestar, now a 5 year old would know that indira gandhi could not attack harmandar sahib for no reason cause it would make the 15% of her military revolt which consisted of sikhs and since i read books and don't believe in urgan myth's like dashmesh_regiment i look for evidence. Oh yes if you read on indira gandhi and check at how so many in the world review her as a hero even though she wasn't, it is cause she cared about her reputation, she wanted the world to think of her as a fair just women she was hell bent on this, she threw ppl in jail who would insult her reputation, so its common sence to know that she wouldn't attack harmandar sahib for no reason and just kill inocent ppl and blow up gurdwaras she needed an excuse and she made bhindranwale her puppet and her excuse.

Another thing i keep forgetting to ask but now i remember, didn't indira gandhi bring bhindranwale into politics, cause i got an answer with evidence to this one that none of you guys talk about. Does anyone know how close he was with some congress leaders that ppl from his village talked about.

Basicully ppl believe that bhindranwale protected harmandar sahib cause they say indira gandhi was leader of rss or whatever and they wanted a bramin world order this is 80% of khalistanis thinking and every khalistani website and ill post them talk about indira gandhi and rss being in bed with eachother to creat bramin india and apparantly indira gandhi and rss hate sikhi cause it opposes caste but then again guys dumb as dashmesh regiment believe these claims then cry.

also they say 40 other gurdwaras were attacked, ppl at gurdwaras in vancouver ask the khalistanis and babbar khalsa guys about the 40 gurdwaras and they dont' give names but they'll start screaming and then crying or whatever but then you get those fights involving khalistanis were they start pulling on eachothers hair over 5 bucks.

Dashmesh i need some evidence about the two gurdwaras and reliable evidence please. Cause i tried hunting the names of those two gurdwaras you named and asked ppl and no one has a clue.

forget all my other questions just give me reference of two gurdwaras and tell me, why indira gandhi would launch missiles into punjab and blame pakistan, and also why she would attack harmandar sahib and 40 other gurdwaras for no reason??

"have read books thats why i schooled you and ""everyone"" else in here. "

so u wanna school the people on this forum ..........hahaha..........man u really high on haumai.....

i told u before stop trying to be a judge of gurmukhs........u see all those events from a worldly perspective.........only if u get the love for sikhi like those gurmukhs had, will u come to know how much it aches when people try to undermine sikhi...............but u r hard-headed..... try this.......

dissociate with the whole issue of 1984 temporarily and try focussing on ur sikhi instead........u create such a furore on social/political topics but never seen u posting even once on gurmat articles...........i am telling u like a brother all this is nothing but feeding ur ego by arguing/citing facts/analyzing/concluding and then feeling happy....."oh man......i made that guy shut up"..........think about it

Sant Bhindrawala babaji was a great leader to sikhs. and He did a lot for the community and religion.

Waheguru ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh

Saadh Sangat ji
Here is one account of Jeevan of Sant Baba Jarnail Singh ji by Giani Thakur Singh ji

[gurmatveechar.com]

Present Day Katha--> Giani Thakur Singh (Patiala Wale) --> Sant Da Jeevan.mp3

From listening to katha one will know Sant ji had ucha sucha jeevan.

mandeep Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> dashmesh regiment i also asked to show me
> references to those two gurdwaras attacked and i
> mean credible, also start naming the gurdwaras
> with evidence, tell me were in those white papers
> it says 40 gurdwaras were attacked please.
>
> Could you give me any reference that names the 40
> gurdwaras attacked cause till this day no one has
> bin able to proving that this is an urban myth
> about 40 other gurdwaras being attacked and once
> again proving that bhindranwale and indira gandhi
> were both causes of operation bluestar.
>
> dashmesh regiment you havn't provided any evidence
> as of yet, your debate is dumb, so if i said in
> the white papers it says no other gurdwaras were
> attacked would it make it true??
>
> PPl would be stupid if they believed me if i said
> that the indian army never attacked harmandar
> sahib instead fed the militants and the ppl
> ladoo's and thats true cause its what it says on
> the whtie papers,yet i wouldn't be able to provide
> evidence, same goes for the two gurdwaras you
> claim to be attacked cause im waiting for you to
> provide credibile evidence just give me anything
> on top of that no one till this day bin able to
> name any of the 40 gurdwaras so i personally
> believe ppl who believe this myth are stupid.


Research all you like because for every answer you will ask 2 more questions,
just try not to run out of swaas too soon :)

The post bluestar white paper released by the gov't stated that 42 gurdwaras had been raided.
sangat singh ex intel agent mentions moga, mukatsar, faridkot, patiala, ropar and chowk mehta (sikhs on history 2002)

Mandeep Veer/Bhenjee (Sorry not sure which one)
You're being very ignorant about this whole issue. I don't believe anyone really has much time to name every 40 or 70 Gurughar that was attacked at the time. I used to be very involved in this defending Sant Jee and other characters. Over time, I realized there is no point. I've come to accept only defending a select few. That includes, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee and any other person in need of my defending. You will never get anywhere in your jeevan by judging individuals regardless of who they are. Yea, sure, the Gandhis had done some bad things but you don't see everyone of us coming on this forum every hour of everyday to talk about how evil she was. You must realize that you have to leave this judging of characters behind. You have to stay involved in this political matters only minimally. Instead of coming on here and talking trash or researching about this stuff. Why not work to make sure this never happens again. Why not do simran with every breath that you have just wasted reading this. Why not let others have nothing to do on this forum but give you advice on how to live your life better, find time to do more simran, find time to read more bani, learn how to correct read or interpret bani.

A note to Admin, this topic should be closed down, it's obviously not gaining any ground.

nobody
thanks for mentioning those gurdwaras but their's no book or any evidence that those gurdwaras were attacked, could you please tell me what reference i can read or give me a amazon book link so i can buy the book that explains these gurdwaras being attacked. Like i said real evidence

confused
reason im responding is for the sikhs who think anyone who goes against bhindranwale is wrong, well ppl have good reason to go against bhindranwale, and for bhindranwale supporters i have few questions





theirs also a myth a very powerfull urban myth with no evidence that bhindranwale went into harmandar sahib to protect it

couple of questions about this urban myth that bhindranwale went into harmandar sahib to protect it, questions of what would congress do if bhindranwale wasn't in harmandar sahib and they attacked it

my first question to that is what would indira gandhi and congress tell the world to protect their reputation and from being called nazis if they killed inocent sikhs and attacked harmandar sahib for no reason?

what would congress tell 15-20% of the indian army at that time which consisted of sikhs if they attacked harmandar sahib for no reason and just killed inocent sikhs.

Why would congress attack harmandar sahib for no reason and kill inocent sikhs for no reason


and if you read any biography of indira gandhi or listen to what other world leaders have said about her or read why bbc made her a candidate of being the 20th century's greatest women its cause she protected her reputation with fire, she would not let anything hurt her reputation, she wanted a reputation of a strong women who loved her ppl, so tell me if she attacked harmandar sahib and killed inocent sikhs for no reason what would she done to save her reputation???

another question some may say if india's govt wasn't going to attack harmandar sahib for no reason then why did they attack 40 other gurdwaras to that i like to ask what 40 gurdwaras? could anyone name me these gurdwaras cause every khalistan website ive bin to claims their were 40 other gurdwaras attacked but won't name them,?

i haven't got the time or patience to try and convince a nindak such as yourself about sant jarnail singh ji. sant ji did everything in the hukam and aagya of Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj, anyone who sincerely looks into his jeevan and actions can see that. however the nindak will be filled with shanka and hatred and will continue to ask questions even though the answer lies in their gaze.

some gurdwaras that have been attacked have been named, as has the source. the evidence of what occurred in 1984 lies in history and not in propaganda. my advice is that you should do your own honest research before reaching a conclusion

happy hunting

singh move on with your life! paat simran karlah!

a lot of people will not waste their time on the net answering questions we are here to make our jeevans better. Hatt jhor keh behnti mittrah shootih kuhr sammah toh odhai khutt eh!

One thing that stands out is indian nationalists continually feel sant bhindawala was the start and cause of khalistan. He was a speaker with some influence, the Indian authorities layed a heavy hand on the sikh community since 1947 that only got worse, and thus the sikhs reacted with or without sant bhindrawala. Thus tensions simmered from many decades. Hence sant bhindrawala was not the cause of khalistan . As can be seen with the inceptions of militant movements preceding 1984. There you go! Most of us are not politically natured people here we do not have hidden plots bhai we are just here to improve our lives, work and then pass on.

What are you trying to gain by asking silly questions? any person that does an indepth unbiased analysis has their own conclusion. Wy should i or anyone listen to you? move on brother and make use of the valuable time for it wont come again.

i should not use the word forgiveness,That would be an understatement of someones suffering.

my last recorrecting post should have gone to the sant bhindrawala thread. apologoy for confusion.

Mandeep wrote:
******************************
what would congress tell 15-20% of the indian army at that time which consisted of sikhs if they attacked harmandar sahib for no reason and just killed inocent sikhs.
********************************

That is the thing. Indira Gandhi was smart enough to not use Sikh soldiers in the attack because she and everyone knew that Sikh soldiers would rather kill fight the Indian army than let an inch to be captured. In fact, any Sikh who calls himself Sikh would do the same thing. So they deployed Sikh regiments far away from Punjab state as possible. After the attack on the Golden Temple hundreds of Sikh soldiers are known to have mutinied and were rushing their way towards Punjab, but being separated from Punjab at such a long distance these unknown heroes of our Panth were crushed.


Mandeep, we should care less of what BBC, or what the world thinks of the issue. The world supports the likes of Indira Gandhi, Nehru who were nothing but power hungry hyenas who caused India considerable pain. India could have been a great country right after Independence, but these power hungry politicians just ended up making India even more corrupt.

The contemporary world will condemn the likes of Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindrawalay just as the world condemned heroes of the Panth like Baba Banda Singh Bahadur and Akali Phula Singh during their times. These unpopular heroes of the Panth are not in a popularity contest for world opinions. These men lived and died in accordance to how a Khalsa should live and ideally die. Who cares about world opinion. For the World opinion, charlatans like Mahatma Gandhi is a hero, while genuine heroes like Udham Singh, Bhaghat Singh, Chandar Shekhar Azad were considered terrorists during their times. Times just like world opinion is subject to fallacy and change in any direction the wind blows

Sant Jarnail Singh Jee is one of the greatest Sikhs of the 20th century. He was no politician, but just a simple man who knew how to be a great Khalsa. They say if you repeat a lie a 1000 times, people will eventually start believing it. The greatest success of the Indian media has been to brainwash 99% Indians that this brave Khalsa warrior was an evil villain, a terrorist.

I’m no Khalistani, but I certainly know a hero when I see him. If he talks like a Hero, looks like a Khalsa Hero, lived like a Khalsa Hero, and died like a Khalsa Hero, then chances are that person is a Hero. At least in my books despite what the world thinks of him.

It was Goebells.... Hitler's media Man who coined the phrase..tell a LIE a thousand times and people will begin to beleive in it as TRUTH.

We SIKHS must NOT let LIES be turned into "TRUTH" just by repetition. These Lies has been repeated since 1984 and go on being repeated 24 years after..
we have to keep REFUTING THE LIES and keep repeating the TRUTH even if it takes another 25 years. We must keep the FAITH with the TRUTH we know.

Some of us didnt follow Gurbani which says..SACH SUNAISEE SACH KEE BELA- meaning even for TRUTH..there is a Specific TIME. If we let that time pass...then even the TRUTH loses its shine. No matter Truth remains TRUTH and will surface even if buried a thosuand miles underground..

Dhan Dhan Sahib Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee Maharaj.

I am not here to say that sant. B wale was a terrorist, nor to rally support for the formation of khalistan. I would like to point out the unneccessary violence that erupted from the bluestar operation.

If the Indian army was only after Sant B. wale, why were the innocent ppl inside the gurdwara killed. Was it neccessary to kill the women and the children. Why was this specific date chosen, a date which ensured that a larger population would be present inside the temple. Why was there a media blackout, why were independent media outlets shutdown. Sant B. wale (there is plenty of evidence) that he was walking about in amrtisar, why was he not arrested then, in the streets of amritsar. Even in those small crowded streets, a well orchestrated army plan would have been able to capture him. There was no need to bomb, the golden temple, if a bank is being robbed, with hostages inside, the SWAT team ensures that the least amount of innocent life is lost. WHy weren't steps taken, to address the issues of what had been done, by indira gandhi. If she had justified her actions (no justification would have been good enough to explain what she had done), why were sikhs being killed everyday. Why were these needless killing allowed to go on for years, and on record till 1994! Why is there no death toll, no one cared to count the bodies? There may be no proof that other gurdwaras wre simultaneously attacken in june 1984, but there is evidence that more gurdwaras were attacken afterwards, example november 1, 1984rakab ganj gurdwara in new delhi. WE need an account of why this was done to us. It is dismal to say the least, that we sikhs today are fighting amongst ourselves to determine if SAnt. B wale was a saint or sinner, and due to political backlash we are afraid to stand together on this issue. When instead we should be united, to question and pressurize not only the indian govenment, but foreign governments to help us sikhs find answers, to all the missing pieces of this puzzle.

On a personal note, whether or not Sant. B wale knew of the forthcoming attack, and was trying to prepare for it with guns, has yet to be proved, that he was puppet of the congress party is also up for debate. That he was a revolutionary preacher to the sikhs is undeniable. That he stood up for the sikhs, he raised his voice to the oppression by the government, is not debatable. He encouraged the sikhs to again return to their roots, to become sache sikhs.

Nayar, informs us that
245
: 'Bhindranwale asked Longowal to give a call to the Sikh
masses to purchase motorcycles and revolvers to kill Hindus in Punjab

IN the following link it clears SAnt. B wale's apparent claim to kill hindu's, a man named nayar went on record to claim that Sant b. wale claimed this, but sant b. wale clears it on record as well saying that he never said this.
[74.125.113.132]


The following link provides human rights violations by the indian goverment, specified towards the sikhs
[www.sikhsangat.com]

While the following link provides translations into english, of speeches made by sant B. wale
[www.sikhlionz.com]

While futher inhumane behaviour by the indian goverment towards the sikh is in the following link:
[forum.pz10.com]

I strongly believe that if the sikh nation (those belonging to the sikh faith) were to rally together, stand united we would find anwers directly from the people responsible. I believe those responsible for these heinous crimes should be brought to justice. violence and raising arms is not the answer, dialogue is, courts, evidence (which there is plenty) should be used to bring justice. I hope that we can do this before those who have witnessed these crimes are no longer.

41 India Today, 31 December 1983, page 36.


"Why, one might ask would Bhindranwale present himself, along with over fifty of his supporters,

at the Deputy Commissioner's residence on the day he moved to Guru Nanak Niwas,

if his purpose was to hide from the law?

Gurdev Singh, District Magistrate at Amritsar until shortly before the invasion, is on record
as having assured the Governor of the state that he could arrest anyone in Darbar Sahib at any time. "
"Gurdev Singh: Letter addressed to I.K. Gujral, dated 26 January 1996, published in Abstract of Sikh Studies, Chandigarh, October-December 1996, pp. 106-111

In December 1983, a senior officer in Chandigarh confessed:

"It's really shocking that we have so little against him while we keep blaming him (Bhindrawale ) for all sorts of things.

"41 The fact is that when the Government was in the process of training army units in the planned invasion of Darbar Sahib,

the only charges against Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale were that his speeches were 'objectionable'.
retired Lieutenant General Jagjit Singh Aurora aptly pointed out in a report by James M. Markham, 'only last month Mrs. Gandhi's son Rajiv had praised him [Bhindranwale] as a man of religion.'

A piece by James Traub further lambasted Gandhi, 'The root of India's problem is that Mrs. Gandhi seems unable to accept the legitimacy of any opposition: Compromise is foreign to her nature.'

An editorial referring to Gandhi's 'credibility problem' hammered the final nail into her integrity coffin: 'the Prime Minister appears to disdain conciliation.

There are wide range of views on Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale from one extreme calling him a terrorist and then on the other end people calling him a Braham Gyanee.

So what will history call him, more importantly what will Sikh History call him. For this answer we just need to look at what an average/neutral Sikh thinks of him, someone that does not belong to his jatha or works for the authorities.

A Sikh outside his circle of followers will first see him as a human, so therefore they acknowledge it will be inevitable that he will be prone to mistakes as only Guru Jee is perfect. There are lot of people that have said that the approach, the language and general intellect could have been better. It is always easy to say things in hindsight, we have to remember the environment in which this all evolved and its constraints. After all we are really talking about a few simple (not in a bad sense) Sikhs taking on a so called World Power.

However one thing everyone agrees on is that Sant Jee’s intentions were honest and his passion for Sikhee was unmatched and only some one with honest intentions can sacrifice his life. After all he did not do this to gain any worldly rewards.
The picture and history of Sant Jee would be very different if he didn’t sacrifice his life.

I believe Sikh history will see him as an honest man trying do defend Sikhee in whatever way he could with whatever little he had.

(Admin - We have edited this post and allowed on material that has not been repeated)



Operation Bluestar Created New Crusaders for Sikh Cause"
Dr Subramaniam Swami - Ex-Member of Parliment


"The ugly situation prevailing in Punjab would not have taken place if the legitimate demands of the Sikh community had been conceded.

In fact, there should have been no need for anyone to have agitated for these demands in the first place if events had moved on the principle of justice and fair play."

(Bharat Kumar Baweja, India Abroad Weekly, New York, June 29, 1984)

"I (Subramanium) visited Punjab on numerous occasions specially during critical months preceding ill-fated Operation Blue Star to evaluate the situation first-hand

I lived inside the Golden Temple on three different occasions including a stay of three days just prior to the Temple invasion. After extended discussions with key figures like Sant H.S. Langowal, G.S. Tohra, Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale, Hindu community leaders, police and administrative officials, press and people at large"




"over 100,000 sikhs have been arrested.

This high number of arrests is undoubtedly, a national record and so has been the peaceful nature in which the Satyagrahas (protests) of this magnitude have been handled by the Sikhs, with extreme tolerance."

(S.M. Sathananthan, et. a1., Hindu-Sikh Conflict in Punjab: Cause and Cure, London: Transatlantic India Times, 1983, p. 15)

"The Akali Dal (the Sikh Organization) is in the hands of moderate and sensible leadership...but givin anyone a fair share of power is unthinkable politics of Mrs. Gandhi...

Many Hindus in Punjab privately concede that there isn't much wrong with these (Sikh) demands.

But every time the ball goes to the Congress Court, it is kicked out one way or another because Mrs. Gandhi considers it a good electoral calculation."

(Pran Chopra, Wall Street Journal, September 26, 1983)

F.Versey October 31, 2004

"deconstructing durga"

"She had mastered the act of playing both victim and rescuer


Pupul Jayakar, a friend and biographer of Indira Gandhi has revealed that

"a few days after the army attack writes,

"she had aged. There were lines on her forehead and a supreme gravity in her eyes. She did not wish to speak of Punjab and I asked no questions."


"For over a year, the Indian army had been preparing for an attack on the Darbar Sahib. To legitimize the attack,

according to Subramaniam Swami—-a member of the Indian Parliament—-the central government had created a disinformation campaign.

In his words, the state sought to "make out that the Golden Temple was the haven of criminals, a store of armory and a citadel of the nation's dismemberment conspiracy"


"In these days, the news has followed the ever more serious events in the state of Punjab.

I do not want to go into the delicate and complex motives behind these disturbances in a great nation.

But the sad fact is that the place where so many people met a tragic death is a temple where men gather in prayer."

Pope John Paul II



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/13/2009 07:11AM by admin.