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Author: Singhni
Date: 09-14-05 02:38
Waheguru ji ka khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fateh
i found the article below on Panthic Weekly. I know which camp it is referring to I myself witnessed these things. Article answers querries emailed to Panthic Weekly regarding manmat things happening in this particular camp in the UK in August 2005. The article's a bit soft on the camp! I heard and also witnessed other weird things which are definately not Sikhi, but I will post later when I got time.
Take a peep at the article (from: http://panthic.org/news/130/ARTICLE/1771/2005-09-11.html?sid=83a21dfa69fe47537dbb922565144560)
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Answering some questions
Sunday 11th September, 2005
Gurmukh Singh - Panthic Weekly Columnist
(KP)
In the past few weeks some readers have contacted Panthic Weekly regarding questions and queries they had regarding Gurmat, which had arisen at a Sikh youth camp for students in the UK, which they had attended in their summer vacation. Through the guidance of Gurbaani and Sikh Rehat Maryada the answers to the questions have been provided.
“Is clapping allowed inside Darbaar Sahib, in the presence of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji?”
When we clap we are basically saying "this is from us to you, the performer (or whoever)". A Sikh expresses joy or appreciation of someone or something through praising Vaheguru. This is done through the Jaikaara, the Sikh slogan: “Bole So Nihaal, Sat Sri Akaal!” which translates to mean “Whosoever replies to this shall be blessed: “True is the Immortal Lord”” or “Whoever says, “True is the Immortal Lord” shall be blessed”.
When a jaikaara is uttered we are thanking Akaal Purakh, the All Knowing and Bestower of Gifts. Clapping is a sign of 'I agree with what you say'. This requires a two part agreement. Gurbaani on the other hand, does not take advice but only gives. Therefore, clapping inside darbaar sahib or in the Saadh-sangat is manmat, contrary to the Guru’s teachings.
In the Darbaar (court) of the Guru only ‘sach’, truth, is told, whether you like it or not. For Gursikhs, the Guru Darbaar is a place to take lessons from, and not to be on equal status or to agree with. It is a place to learn to be a slave. Therefore it is clear that clapping is not appropriate in these settings. For similar reasons clapping or applaud is prohibited inside a Church or Mosque, instead recognition or praise is expressed through saying “Amen” or “Glory be to God”.
“Are Sikhs allowed to swear? I have seen Sikhs wearing blue Nihang dress and using foul language, is this Sikhi?”
ਸਲੋਕ ਮ: 3 ॥ ਮਨਮੁਖ ਬੋਲਿ ਨ ਜਾਣਨ੍ੀ ਓਨਾ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਅਹੰਕਾਰੁ ॥ ਥਾਉ ਕੁਥਾਉ ਨ ਜਾਣਨੀ ਸਦਾ ਚਿਤਵਹਿ ਬਿਕਾਰ ॥ ਦਰਗਹ ਲੇਖਾ ਮੰਗੀਐ ਓਥੈ ਹੋਹਿ ਕੂੜਿਆਰ ॥ ਆਪੇ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਉਪਾਈਅਨੁ ਆਪਿ ਕਰੇ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਿਸ ਨੋ ਆਖੀਐ ਸਭੁ ਵਰਤੈ ਆਪਿ ਸਚਿਆਰੁ ॥1॥
"Salok, Third Mehl: The self-willed manmukhs do not even know how to speak. They are filled with sexual desire, anger and egotism. They do not know the difference between good and bad; they constantly think of corruption. In the Vaheguru's Court, they are called to account, and they are judged to be false. He Himself creates the Universe. He Himself contemplates it. O Nanak, whom should we tell? The True Lord is permeating and pervading all. ||1||" (Saarang, Ang 1248, SGGS)
Gurbaani clearly states that speaking foul language and negatively, will have an effect on the person’s mind and body. When we speak, we let out vibrations. According to the words we speak and the tone we speak we let out negative or positive vibrations. It is a fact that those who swear, use bad language or speak negatively let out negative vibrations in the environment surrounding them. The negativity and anger they speak with effects the tranquillity and harmony of their mind, which then entails negative effects caused on the physical body as a result of stress and tension.
Guru Ji says:
ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮ: 1 ॥
ਨਾਨਕ ਫਿਕੈ ਬੋਲਿਐ ਤਨੁ ਮਨੁ ਫਿਕਾ ਹੋਇ ॥
ਫਿਕੋ ਫਿਕਾ ਸਦੀਐ ਫਿਕੇ ਫਿਕੀ ਸੋਇ ॥
ਫਿਕਾ ਦਰਗਹ ਸਟੀਐ ਮੁਹਿ ਥੁਕਾ ਫਿਕੇ ਪਾਇ ॥
ਫਿਕਾ ਮੂਰਖੁ ਆਖੀਐ ਪਾਣਾ ਲਹੈ ਸਜਾਇ ॥1॥
Shalok, First Mehl:
“O Nanak, speaking ‘fikaa’, insipid words, the body and mind become ‘fikaa’, insipid.
He is called the most insipid of the insipid; the most insipid of the insipid is his reputation.
The insipid person is discarded in the Court of the Lord, and the insipid one's face is spat upon.
The insipid one is called a fool; he is beaten with shoes in punishment. ||1||”
(Aasa, Ang 473, SGGS)
As Sikhs we recognize that we the Jyot of Vaheguru is within us all:
ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਹੈ ਸੋਇ ॥
“Amongst all is the Light-You are that Light.”
(Ang 13, SGGS)
Our aim, as the Sikh’s of the Guru is to become one with Vaheguru, to realise Vaheguru and let go of the “ego” and merge into the gun, qualities, of Vaheguru. Vaheguru speaks sweetly and never speaks harsh, and therefore a Guru Ka Sikh should do the same.
ਮਿਠ ਬੋਲੜਾ ਜੀ ਹਰਿ ਸਜਣੁ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਮੋਰਾ ॥
ਹਉ ਸੰਮਲਿ ਥਕੀ ਜੀ ਓਹੁ ਕਦੇ ਨ ਬੋਲੈ ਕਉਰਾ ॥
“My Dear Lord and Master, my Friend, speaks so sweetly.
I have grown weary of testing Him, but still, He never speaks harshly to me.”
(Soohee, Ang 784, SGGS)
A Sikh should always remain positive and in a feeling of Chardikala, high spirit. Our Guru Sahibaans are the best role models to aspire for. Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji’s two elder sons were martyred in the battlefield fighting against the Mughal tyranny, and his two younger sons were cold-heartedly bricked alive by the Mughal regime. However, did Guru Ji swear and curse Aurangzeb, the man responsible for the torture and murder of the innocent? Did Guru Gobind Singh Ji get angry and hot-headed? Did the True Master, Guru Gobind Singh Ji speak negative words and let out negative vibrations? Not at all! The Perfect Guru, the tenth body of Guru Nanak, kept in Chardikala and high spirits even though he had lost his home, family, and worldly wealth. Instead of cursing, swearing and getting angry, Guru Ji wrote the ‘Zafarnaama’, literally meaning, the ‘Letter of Victory’. Guru Ji expressed the truth of the situation in the letter and the horrific crimes that Aurangzeb had committed, however the letter had a tone of triumph, truth, and honour. For this reason, when Aurangzeb heard the letter, he died of shock.
ਫਰੀਦਾ ਬੁਰੇ ਦਾ ਭਲਾ ਕਰਿ ਗੁਸਾ ਮਨਿ ਨ ਹਢਾਇ ॥ ਦੇਹੀ ਰੋਗੁ ਨ ਲਗਈ ਪਲੈ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਪਾਇ ॥78॥
"Fareed, answer evil with goodness; do not fill your mind with anger. Your body shall not suffer from any disease, and you shall obtain everything. ||78||"
(Ang 1381, SGGS)
“I have heard some people say that Vaheguru has one weakness. That one weakness is that he thirsts for people to Love Him. Does Vaheguru have any weaknesses?”
Whoever said this has used their own feelings and emotions and anthropomorphised Vaheguru with their human emotions. It is true that living beings crave love. We should love Vaheguru as he gave us life, air to breathe, food to eat, he cared for us from the day we were conceived in our mother’s womb and will carry on caring for us till we die. Just as a child loves his mother, because of their bond and relationship, a human loves Vaheguru because of their bond, relationship and understanding between the person and Vaheguru.
However, Vaheguru is beyond human characteristics. We anthropomorphise Vaheguru, i.e. perceive Him with human attributes as a mechanism to communicate to Vaheguru and develop a relationship with our limited understanding. Vaheguru is a like deep-ocean, which we cannot put limits to nor estimate. For someone to say “Vaheguru’s one weakness is that he yearns for people to love him” is like the person saying “I know everything about Vaheguru”, and suggests a tone of arrogance and ego.
Gurbaani, the Word of God, revealed for the Guru Sahibaans tells us that Vaheguru is “Pooraa”, perfect. Perfect, means “no weakness”, not even one. If the person who made this comment ever read Rehraas Sahib with close attention, he or she would realise that Vaheguru does not need praise or attention. We are the ones who are helpless without Vaheguru, He is not helpless or needy without us. Vaheguru’s glory and greatness cannot be reduced regardless of whether we praise and love Him less or more.
ਸਾਚੇ ਨਾਮ ਕੀ ਤਿਲੁ ਵਡਿਆਈ ॥
ਆਖਿ ਥਕੇ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਨਹੀ ਪਾਈ ॥
ਜੇ ਸਭਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਕੈ ਆਖਣ ਪਾਹਿ ॥
ਵਡਾ ਨ ਹੋਵੈ ਘਾਟਿ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥2॥
“Trying to describe even an iota of the Greatness of the True Name,
people have grown weary, but they have not been able to evaluate it.
Even if everyone were to gather together and speak of Him,
He would not become any greater or any lesser. ||2||”
(Sodar, Ang 9, SGGS)
In our daily Nitnem we read in Jaap Sahib the following lines:
ਅਨਾਸ ਹੈਂ ॥ ਉਦਾਸ ਹੈਂ ॥
ਅਧੰਧ ਹੈਂ ॥ ਅਬੰਧ ਹੈਂ ॥136॥
“He is perpetual. He is not entangled in love for anybody.
He is not involved in any entanglements. He is beyond all restraints.”
(P. 18, Dasam Granth)
ਨ ਰਾਗੇ ॥ ਨ ਰੰਗੇ ॥
ਨ ਰੂਪੇ ॥ ਨ ਰੇਖੇ ॥195॥
“Vaheguru is above love. Vaheguru has no colour.
Vaheguru has no form. Vaheguru has no mark.”
(P. 25, Dasam Granth)
Though we should love Vaheguru and He loves all His creation. However, to suggest that He has a weakness or try to play on words to suggest or imply such a thing is an act of ignorance.
“Someone told a friend of mine that it is okay for an Amritdhari to drink sharaab (liquor). However, you shouldn’t drink regularly or get drunk i.e. it is okay for an Amritdhari to drink socially once in a while. This baffled me. I knew it weren’t right but didn’t know enough to explain to my friend what is right.”
Section 4, Chapter X, Article XVI of the Panthic Sikh Rehat Maryada states:
“(j) A Sikh must not take hemp (cannabis), opium, liquor, tobacco, in short any intoxicant. His only routine intake should be food.”
Please refer to Panthic Weekly’s “Understanding the Sikh Rehat Maryada” dated 4th September. That article discusses consuming liquor in regards to Gurmat.
http://panthic.org/news/125/ARTICLE/1730/2005-09-04.html
“Who is a Sikh? I was confused after someone in a lecture implied that anyone and everyone is a Sikh, as long as you feel you are Sikh within. Though it seemed to make sense to an extent, I was unsure in regards to what the person meant in terms of being Keshdhari, and taking Amrit. Does a Sikh have to take Amrit or keep Kesh, or as open-minded caring people should we indiscriminately ‘appreciate’ and ‘rejoice’ the diversity of different types of Sikhs within our community.”
Please refer to an earlier article that issued on Panthic Weekly entitled: “Amrit – is it for everyone?”
http://panthic.org/news/129/ARTICLE/1510/2005-07-10.html
“Why do we beat drums during the Ardaas? Is this only practiced by the warrior Sikhs or by all Sikhs?”
First of all Sikhs who follow the Guru’s path and teachings and have taken the Amrit bequeathed by the Tenth Master, Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji, are ‘Sant-Sipaahi’, Saint-Warriors. Being a warrior alone is not a Sikh. A Sikh of the Guru is a Spiritual warrior. If you give a weapon in the hand of a non-spiritual person from the road, he or she would use to commit tyranny and harm. However, give the same weapon in the hand of a spiritual person, in the hand of a Saint, and he or she will protect the weak, stand for justice and upkeep righteousness. Therefore, Guru Ji first made a Sikh a “Sant” then a “Sipaahi”. Not the other way round. The sad state of affairs today is that some Sikhs think that they can be ‘warriors’ without being ‘saints’ and they view being ‘saintly’ and being a ‘warrior’ as two separate entities, despite Guru Nanak Sahib Ji making the two the same. Guru Gobind Singh Ji in 1699 brought the message of Guru Nanak into a physical image, and that was the ‘Khalsa’. I thought I would clarify this point.
I think you are referring to the Nihang Singhs when you say “warrior Sikhs”, who are the like the official army of the Panth who are trained and live to fight to guard and protect the Sikh Gurdwaras and the Sikh Community. To read more about Nihang Singhs please visit:
http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php?title=Nihang
In regards to the drumming during Ardaas, the drum is called the ‘Nagaara’.
Chapter IV – ‘Gurduwaras, congregational etiquette, rites’, article V, of the Panthic Sikh Rehat Maryada states:
“(s) There should be a drum (nagara) in the Gurduwara for beating on appropriate occasions.”
The Nagaara is used to instil high spirits, courage and feeling of strength in the Saadh Sangat. It is also a symbol and sign of royalty. All kings and emperors would have a Nagaara in their court, which would be drummed. For this reason in the court of the King of Kings Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji there is a Nagara, which is drummed during and at the end of the Ardaas and during Prakaash and Sukhaasan. Practically the Nagaara also plays a function of bringing the congregation to a state of readiness and attention, which is most appropriate for the standing communal Ardaas.
Baba Fareed Ji describes in Gurbaani how the Kings are honoured and respected, but eventually they all die.
ਪਾਸਿ ਦਮਾਮੇ ਛਤੁ ਸਿਰਿ ਭੇਰੀ ਸਡੋ ਰਡ ॥ ਜਾਇ ਸੁਤੇ ਜੀਰਾਣ ਮਹਿ ਥੀਏ ਅਤੀਮਾ ਗਡ ॥45॥
"Drums were beaten in their honour, there were canopies above their heads, and bugles announced their coming. They have gone to sleep in the cemetery, buried like poor orphans. ||45||" (Ang 1380, SGGS)
As Sikhs we are blessed that our King, our Emperor, our Satguru, is eternal and forever with us.
The Maryada, tradition, to play the Nagaara was started by the Sixth Nanak, Sri Guru Hargobind Ji. When Guru Ji moved from one place to another, the Nagaara used to be played. When Bhai Roop Ji went to visit Sri Guru Hargobind Ji to ask for blessings to do Parchaar, to preach, then Guru Ji blessed him with a Nagaara and a flag. This meant that may Bhai Roop Ji do parchaar truthfully and freely.
When commencing the Langar, the Seventh Nanak, Sri Guru Har Rai Ji ordered for the Nagaara to be sounded so that everyone would know that the Langar is ready for the congregation to eat.
Outside the Darbaar (court) of the Eighth Nanak, Guru Har Krishan Ji, a Nagaara used to be sounded. This fact is also recorded:
ਨੌਬਤ ਬਾਜਿਤ ਦਵਾਰ ਅਗਾਰੀ ॥
At Anandpur Sahib, the sound of victory in battle would come from the Naagaras, which would vibrate through the mountains surrounding Anandpur Sahib, raising the hopes of Sikhs and shaking the hearts of the mountains. The Nagaara used for battles were prepared in 1684 at Anandpur Sahib.
Maharaja Ranjit Singh would say “don’t call me Ranjit Singh, I am the ‘Ranjit (battle-victory) Nagaara’ who sends the message of the Kalgidhar (Guru Gobind Singh Ji) to highest of the highest people.
It is important for all Gurdwara Sahibs to have a Nagaara, which should be sounded during early morning Prakaash so that everyone knows that this is the True King’s Court.
Gurmukh Singh can be reached at gurmukh.singh@panthic.org
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Author: realhistory
Date: 09-14-05 09:28
What is being taught by some people and some organisations to the Sikh youth will take years of niskam sewa and mehnat to undo. I appreciate the Panthic weekly for taking time to post the questions and to give answers in line with Gurmat.
Btw Singhni Ji could you post the kind of things that you saw and heard at this camp.
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Author: Vaheguruu
Date: 09-14-05 10:19
it is true... I have herd about alot of manmat stuff. I think people who went should email panthic weekly so they can expose it! We need to stop this togther as one.
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Author: Singhni
Date: 09-14-05 11:50
1/ Some of the boys told me that in the room where the Nihang Singhs were sleeping, they had prepared a bed for Guru Gobind Singh Ji!? Apparently my friends said that the Nihang Singhs said that the bed (which they said was an air bed with a blanket on it, placed on a bunch of school tables put together) was for Guru Gobind Singh Ji to sleep on at night. My cuz saw it as well. He said that there were too small nishaan sahibs on each end of the air bed. My cuz said that a group of boys went to see "Guru Ji's bed" after some Nihangs told them about it.
2/ Cookies and Milk (not kidding!) were placed next to "Guru Gobind Singh Ji's bed" (aka the air bed placed on a few tables). When my cuzin asked who the milk and cookies were for, the Nihang Singh Paji said that it was for Guru ji to eat and drink.
3/ On Tuesday the Nishan Sahib was changed and replaced. it was a really good experience. doing nishan sahib di sewa for the first time was really chardikala. however i was suprised and bit disturbed (the least!) by:
(i) bob singh paji said that the nishan sahib sewa that we were going to do at the camp was the 'proper' and 'traditional' way of doing it, whereas in the Gurdwaras etc we practice "Christian-fied version of the ceremony." i didn't get what he meant about gurdware being 'christian-fied'.
(ii) balkar singh paji and another paji cut their arms with a kirpan and then smudged blood on the nishan sahib. i noticed when i looked at the khanda and saw a long blood stain on it. i asked my friend what it was and she said it was blood. bit scary! and disturbin. i know emotions were flying high and people were getting into the spirit, but blood and smudging it and waving the kirpan in the air and keeping shouting on the top of their voice was bit too much for me.
4/ i have been brought up by my family that when we go to the gurdwara we shouldn't clap. instead i was taught that we should say 'bole so nihal, sat sri akal' to show joy or to appreciate kirtan, lecture, talk or something. but at the camp bhai sahib from malaysia who was really nice, said that clapping was okay in the gurdwara as long it was graceful. it seemed totally new to what i was taught at my local gurdwara.
5/ I dont want to disrespect nihung singhs or guru gobind singh ji's sikhs, but i found the nihang singhs bit aggressive and intimidating. i overheard swearing and especially at the camp fire i was disappointed to hear paji balkar singh, who before then i thought was a sweet gursikh, swore and said "everyone f*ckin shut up" when he is about to do a talk at the camp fire. it really threw me and my friends, but most people laughed it off.
6/ a singh came over to talk to the girls group. he implied something which i and the other penjis werent comfortable with. he suggested that guru gobind singh ji is good looking person, and the beauty of guru ji is in the singhs who were bana. i weren't liking where the talking was leading. he was implying stuff that we women are attracted to the guru and so were are attracted to singhs. i dunno whether i am the one in wrong. but thinking of guru ji in illicit terms or sexual way seems disrespectful and way out of the league for someone who was brought up to respect guruji.
7/ i had bit of a headache from everyone shouting 'akal' 'akal' 'akal'. i know we do bole so nihal, sat sri akal in the gurdwara and on special functions but everyone kept saying it for no reason, which was very annoying. saying 'akal' and saying 'bole so nihal, sat sri akal' became bit of a joke and a laugh. which is bit sad.
i am sorry to depress everyone with my negativity. me and my cuzin enjoyed the camp. but we were overthrown some of the above stuff. i loved sukha singh paji explaining the hukamnamas and the kirtan was really inspiring.
does anyone else have thoughts to share. perhaps anyone who went to the camp? sorry if i said anything wrong or offensive.
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Author: singh
Date: 09-14-05 12:01
Holy cow.
That camp was a pure cult.
Guru Sahib has never needed a bed nor has anyone every tried to give Guru Sahib 'milk and cookies'.
Where is this ideology coming from?
Is Guru Sahib Santa Claus that we leave him a snack when he visits us at night? Who ate teh milk and cookies?
This is UTTER UTTER MANMAT
Staining a nishan Sahib with blood is self-mutilation. Does Guru Sahib want his Sikhs to spill their own blood? Does that even make sense? Was the nishan sahib raising a respectful raising of Khalsa's nishaan or was it a blood thirsty and roudy orgy? Ask yourself.
Singhs are supposed to be sweet-spoken and gentle. Is swearing a Singh thing to do?
So the entire Panth has it wrong when it says "bole so nihaal sat sri akaal" does it?
Please don't support these Nangs. Do not associate with them, do not go to their events. They are a rot in the Sikh Panth. And for the most part, they are a bunch of confused kids being mislead by a few "leaders" at the top in it for the ego boost and exploit young girls and boys.
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Author: Singh
Date: 09-14-05 12:11
Thanks for your post and honest thought
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Author: Gurpreet Kaur
Date: 09-14-05 12:35
Hmm, I didnt go to the camp, but all I heard was that it was very good, the best ever a few people said, I didnt know about all this. Thanks for your honest post Singhani Penji.
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Author: K Singh
Date: 09-14-05 12:57
I am shocked at what Singhni has just written. Why the heck would they leave milk and cookies for God sake! this is pure manmat. And what's up with the self mutilation leading to anointment of the Nishan Sahib with BLOOD? This is sick! These guys have some serious psychological issues. This seems like a demonic cult.
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Author: realhistory
Date: 09-14-05 13:14
Thanks for giving us more information about the camp. i myself haven't been to the camp and although some people said it was a good camp i have come across others who were disturbed by events there especially the self mutilation in the Nishan Sahib sewa.
Can I ask one more question. How involved where the organisers with the Nihangs? Were the Nihangs just a fringe element at the camp or were they with the support of the camp organisers running the show? The reason I ask is that although the Nihangs deny it, the whole Sikh student camp movement MAY just a way of getting impressionable Sikh youth under the influence of the Nihangs. I say MAY because I do not want to do nindya of the organiser who may just be innocent of the whole thing and it might be that the Nihangs through force of numbers and their general intimidatory attitude have run things in the camp
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Author: ...
Date: 09-14-05 13:32
singh so u have enevr swore in your life,????
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Author: Singhni
Date: 09-14-05 14:19
I dont really know who were the organisers and who were not. all i know that the penji who registered me for the camp and the paji who did the stage anouncements were not nihang singhs.
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Author: Shameful
Date: 09-14-05 14:29
All things you do there are good points and bad points. however in this case though there are really good points about the camp as pointed out by penji e.g. hukamnama translation, great sangat, great kirtan, good talks, great fun, but the negative points are VERY SERIOUS.
last year (2004) i went to the camp. i didnt want to come this year because of the nangs. last year someone called bahadar singh and kamalroop singh told campers that it is okay for bibis to wax, shave and trim hair. infact, they encouraged it, saying that ladies who dont are "ugly" and therefore not being "real women". yes, i agree a woman doesnt have facial hair and it is abnormal to do so. however saying "woman are ugly" or telling them to cut seems anti-sikhi. rather we should be sympathetic to women and instead give them advice (which doesnt involve removal of hair) i.e. like go to the doctor and get the harmones to be balanced and improve diet etc.
i don't know much. but i thought i would share something.
the camp is being washed over as "bad" and this that. some people would disagree because they actually get a lot out of out. some people keep their hair, discover gurbaani and develop an interest for sikhi etc. HOWEVER the downside is definately serious and should be addressed. i dunno how it can be solved though.
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Author: ns
Date: 09-14-05 14:37
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh
Singhni Jeeo,
ManY Thanks for sharing your views on the Sikh Student camp. I can't beleive the organisers are innocent as I 've heard this kind of stuff hass been goin on for your years and nothing is being done about it. This is why I mentioned in another thread on this site that a MEGA camp is much needed in the UK to fob off and get these nangs to feel left out and to stop doing parchar of anti Gurmat to innocent people coming to the camps.
There are some who oppose the view of MEGA camp to them I would say what other solution do you propose. If the MEGA camp were to happen once every 2-5 years we all know the nangs who were prominent at Sikh student camp will not be turning up hence it would give innocent Sikhs glimpse of the beauty of real Khalsa.
I 've no doubt in my mind that these practises went on in the camp we need more people like singhini Ji to come out mention anti gurmat occurring hopefully this will give some kind of message to these nangs .
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Author: Truth
Date: 09-14-05 16:39
People
One thing i like to say to you lot, you all hide in this forum of yours and slate people about. The camp you are talking about is opening peoples eyes about what the true dhram is about, ok sometimes they do go over the top with few things but that happens at every sikhi camp you go to. Let me explain to about the nihang singhs, by puting blood on the nishan sahaib is there maryada, there ritual. I have been reading these forums for the last few months and you guys are calling these nihangs nangs. Tell me out of all you guys who write in these forums, know any thing about history and what is the real maryada of the nihang singhs, I dont think so. I recently went to india and visited the harimandhir sahaib, it was so ****admin cut***. There was no one to talk to about sprituailty and self enlightment. There were plenty of people who talked a lot of **** (like u guys do in this forum). So one of my friends sugested to go to Haridiwar (its on the way to Hamkunt sahaib, its where all hindu's go for worship). I found so many saints to talk to, who talked to me about my life and sprituailty not what is right and what is wrong and if im on the right path. All they explained to me was that it was all his hukhum, any one can become in one with HIM (GOD). It does not matter if you have long hair, short hair, long beard, trim beard, it does not matter. The only thing matters is the true love inside yourself.
When i came back from India i decided to cut my hair ( i was a amritdhari before going to india). So i cut my hair and told all my friends about my travels and the knowledge i gathered. Most of them decided to do what i did, which was great and we enjoy life much more.
So all I like to say to you guys , hide behind your forums, while you hide the true dhram is reveled to the people and change will crush you.
Goodbye
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Author: Singh
Date: 09-14-05 17:15
Yeah Truth, my brotha! Love!! Peace!! Make love not war!
Hippyism and free love for all.
bull
For you, harmandir sahib is "crap". May your mouth burn for saying that.
You fell for the sweet talking swamis and sants. They've been thugging people for centuries and you just joined the "thugged club". Don't worry, you've got lots of company.
Prof. Pooran Singh jee also fell in with one of these swamis and ended up cutting his hair. He later realised the truth of Sikhi and regretted his decision. Anyways.
So keertan didn't say anything to you. But the empty talk of these Swamis made you bliss out eh? Good stuff. Do you realise anyone can talk about peace and love and follow your heart and sound like a spiritual master? Deepak Chopra made a career out of it.
Then you came back, and through inspiration from your long haired and bearded swamis and rishis, you decided to cut your hair. Guru Nanak to Guru Gobind Singh were wrong but your Rishis of Hardwar were right.
All about love you say? How is love shown? What are you doing to show love? What love are you feeling? Do you go around hugging people, trees and animals to express your love? If someone says "I love you" it feels nice but if he says it 1000 times but does nothing to show it, what use is that love? Is it even real? No.
Love is shown through our rehit. Love is shown through our amrit vela. Love is shown through our bani and naam.
What are you doing exactly?
Are you enlightened yet? Your writing sure does seem enlightened.
Keep living in your delusional world of free love and peace. The hippies grew out of it and I'm sure one day (this life or maybe another) you'll see its all a mirage as well.
Love is Sikhi. Guru Sahib teaches us to play the Game of Love. You just took yourself out of the game.
Good luck to you.
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Author: trigger
Date: 09-14-05 17:55
"Singhs are supposed to be sweet-spoken and gentle"
practice what you preach
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Author: name withheld upon request
Date: 09-14-05 17:56
the author for the panthic weekly wrote:he thirsts for people to Love Him.
and then says Whoever said this has used their own feelings and emotions and anthropomorphised Vaheguru with their human emotions.
The is written in gurbani that the only thirts that Guru has is for Love. and not superficial acts or ceremonies.
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Author: trigger
Date: 09-14-05 18:07
"May your mouth burn "
says the man who loves so much; the man who asks God daily for "sab da Bhala"
mate, maybe u need some hippy herbs
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Author: realhistory
Date: 09-14-05 18:42
Trigger it's actually Sarbat Da Bhalla so maybe you might want to know the actual expression before attemping to discredit someone's views
Truth, So you cut your hair and committed a Bujjar Kurehat and you feel liberated about it. So be it, to each his own and if you can called the place about which Guruji said Dithay Sabhay Thanv nahi tudh Jiha and call it crap then again that is what is in your karam. Not only that but your gave your mat to your friends and they also decided to cut their hair!
We get the sangat we deserve and after reading your post you truely deserve the sangat of the superficial. Enjoy this life and perhaps in the next Guruji will still bless you enough to come back in Manas Janam and make up for the follies of this life
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Author: Singh
Date: 09-14-05 19:03
A bemukh is a poisonous snake. You don't give milk to a poisonous snake. Guru Sahib doesn't mince words when it comes to these types of people:
sloku mÚ 3 ]
salok ma 3 ||
Shalok, Third Mehl:
ijin guru goipAw Awpxw iqsu Taur n Twau ]
jin gur gopiaa aapanaa this t(h)our n t(h)aao ||
Those who do not affirm their Guru shall have no home or place of rest.
hlqu plqu dovY gey drgh nwhI Qwau ]
halath palath dhovai geae dharageh naahee thhaao ||
They lose both this world and the next; they have no place in the Court of the Lord.
Eh vylw hiQ n AwveI iPir siqgur lgih pwie ]
ouh vaelaa hathh n aavee fir sathigur lagehi paae ||
This opportunity to bow at the Feet of the True Guru shall never come again.
siqgur kI gxqY GusIAY duKy duiK ivhwie ]
sathigur kee ganathai ghuseeai dhukhae dhukh vihaae ||
If they miss out on being counted by the True Guru, they shall pass their lives in pain and misery.
siqguru purKu inrvYru hY Awpy ley ijsu lwie ]
sathigur purakh niravair hai aapae leae jis laae ||
The True Guru, the Primal Being, has no hatred or vengeance; He unites with Himself those with whom He is pleased.
nwnk drsnu ijnw vyKwilEnu iqnw drgh ley Cfwie ]1]
naanak dharasan jinaa vaekhaalioun thinaa dharageh leae shhaddaae ||1||
O Nanak, those who behold the Blessed Vision of His Darshan, are emancipated in the Court of the Lord. ||1||
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Author: charanjeev singh
Date: 09-14-05 20:10
Truth,
you were persuaded by the sweet talk of some people, as is the moth attracted to the light. By being persuaded you decided to kill youself, as the moth burns and kills himself by going into the light that it was so attracted to. Unfortunately, you did not focus your mind to the sweetest words, so sweet, that the Guru called it Keertan. This is the spiritual guidance that is needed. If you were to listen to the keertan, and then made it your mission to understand the Keertan, through what the Guru has called veechar, your mind and body would have been most blissful. Instead, you did not listen to keertan, but only went there with your body. Your mind was attuned to something else, and your mind was attracted to falsehood. And this is why, when falsehood came infront of you with their sweet words, you heeded their advice. And look how poisonous these words were, first they stung you with their venom, then you stung your friends. This was not good.
They simply persuaded you with words. Yet choteh sahibzadeh whom were only 7 and 9 years old were not persuaded by words, riches, or anything else. They were not persuaded even for their life. Why?
Please keep your kesh again, and also work to understand the Gurbaani of Guru Granth Sahib. They Panj Pyareh are most compassionate, go to them and ask for their blessings, and take your friends with you as well. Correct this mistake.
Keep your kesh for choteh sahibzadeh, keep your kesh for all those who would rather be killed than to give us their kesh. Keep your kesh again, please. With every Kesh that grows, may your love for Truth also grow.
Live the Truth.
And if you go to Hardwar again, may you be so strong, that you teach them how to live the Truth, and make them keep their Kesh; a gift from God.
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Author: The Khalsa Fauj
Date: 09-14-05 20:28
Well, if people claiming to be sikhs followed akaal takht maryada and did make their own ones. The problems wouldn't rise up.
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Author: vaja murderer
Date: 09-15-05 01:38
a lot of amritdharis have started kes cutting the fundamental question is why do our own brothers and sisters feel so distant from guru jis puratan maryada?
do niot blame them, engage them in talk to understand what their probloems are.
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Author: singh
Date: 09-15-05 01:50
who is sukha singh?
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Author: Lionking
Date: 09-15-05 02:13
I agree with most fo the article but oen part about Vaheguru wanting love -
[gurban]goivMd Bwau Bgq dw BuKw ]÷]
govi(n)dh bhaao bhagath dhaa bhukhaa ||a||
The Lord needs loving devotion and nothing else.
http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=5765
Although I might be quoting it out of context - could some GUrmukh pyaara check this up please'
However You are right that it's not a Weakness...as Waheguru is sampooran and doesn't need anything
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Author: Lionking
Date: 09-15-05 02:14
I agree with most fo the article but oen part about Vaheguru wanting love -
goivMd Bwau Bgq dw BuKw ]÷]
govi(n)dh bhaao bhagath dhaa bhukhaa ||a||
The Lord needs loving devotion and nothing else.
http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=5765
Although I might be quoting it out of context - could some GUrmukh pyaara check this up please'
However You are right that it's not a Weakness...as Waheguru is sampooran and doesn't need anything
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Author: Kulbir Singh
Date: 09-15-05 04:56
"Truth",
You are lost because you have become a bemukh. As per hukam of Gurbani, you will incarnate into many inferior life-forms and then after infinite time, when your some good karam sprouts, you will meet Satguru again.
It is your misfortune that you found more spirituality in Hardwar than in Harmandir Sahib. All I can say is that it is a step backwards in spirituality.
Feel sorry for you.
Kulbir Singh
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Author: MS
Date: 09-15-05 05:10
I can see where Truth is coming from... Its far easier in short term to surrender to ones own weakness's. People being naturally lazy, "I wont go to work because I can sit home and claim benefits" He gets everyone else to pay for his lifestyle and is liberated, no responsibilities, no worries, just eats out of other peoples hands for rest of his life. Just as we are constantly eating from Guroo's hand except when pay day comes, and it will, mr Truth is going to be truly buggered because he has been living his 'free' life against Guru's hukam.
Just like how many millions of people who struggeled, died in such horrible ways had true piar for their Sikhi they were cut in half, limb by limb to preserve their Sikhi. That was hard work and took true love and devotion. mr Truth's way is just easy, find confort in ignorance, ignorance, shedding ones responsibilities is 'liberation' when TRULY its like living off a credit card. Your going to reach your limit and when you do your going to fall.... worry not, Guroo's going to catch, only so that you can betray him again? - your choice.
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Author: A Singh
Date: 09-15-05 05:50
Dear Shameful,
You wrote...
<<last year (2004) i went to the camp. i didnt want to come this year because of the nangs. last year someone called bahadar singh and kamalroop singh told campers that it is okay for bibis to wax, shave and trim hair. infact, they encouraged it, saying that ladies who dont are "ugly" and therefore not being "real women".>>
...what exactly was the reaction of the campers to these statements? Given all the pictures one sees of these "camps" with the 'parkash-dara' Singhs and "full-time" Bana wearing "sarablohi" Bhajis and Benjis, surely this point would have been discussed further there and then?
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Author: sikh student sewadar
Date: 09-15-05 06:27
waheguru ji ka khalsa
waheguru ji ke fateh!
I was present at the time when hair waxing/trimming was discussed, it was a discusion group, bahadur and kamalroop singh, were not in cahrge, they were giving their own opinions on the matter.
As far as I recall, it was Bahadur who endorsed waxing, with kamalroop singh arguing the opposite to balance out the discusion..............................................
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Author: jugroop singh
Date: 09-15-05 07:36
VahiGuruJiKaKhalsa,VahiGuruJiKiFateh!
Sadh Sangat Jio,
Dearest Veer/Bhain 'sikh student sewadar' wrote:
'...it was Bahadur who endorsed waxing...'
not very 'Brave' of 'Bahadur' to be endorsing waxing. is he scared of women haveing Kes on their body?
and also who is he to argue against VahiGuru's Hukam? it is amazing how powerfully the mind can lead some people astray...
Baba Jarnail Singh (Bhindrawale) was once told by some Punjabi men that they did not want to keep Kes because their dharis would grow very thickly. Baba Ji told then to do Ardaas to VahiGuru that they may be reborn as women.
perhaps 'Bahadur the brave' should be reborn as a female gorilla so that he can get over his aversion regarding Kes on females!
lol
VahiGuruJiKaKhalsa,VahiGuruJiKiFateh!
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Author: A Singh
Date: 09-15-05 08:16
How much of the above 'report' is based on such 'personal opinions' and how much is based on what was actually being 'preached' by the camp oragnisers?
We potentially have a situation, yet again, where insecurity of individuals is getting the better of them - if the camp allows for a 'discussion' then 'discuss' what you will and be ready to hear things that may well transgress from the 'gurmat' the majority of us consider acceptable, however why on account of an outsider to the camp are we finding the organisers receiving a bashing?
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Author: Satnam Singh
Date: 09-15-05 12:05
waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh.
Once again when all else fails we ask God in Her infinite wisdom.
satnam: God, you there?
God: i am always here, there everywhere......you guys just don't see.
satnam: does it matter? as long as we love you right?
God: it does not matter. Until you start "seeing" the "soul" reason for your being, until you connect with the truth inside you, you will love me all you want yet never truly love me at all?
satnam: but love is all that matters?!?!
God: really? since when?
satnam: that's what most people say....you can do anything you want but if the heart is clean then love is all that matters...."truth" said it above, doesn't matter if one shaves, trims, cuts hair as long as there is love inside.
God: Hmm........did he say that?.....let's see.....let us put it into perspective.
satnam: go on
God: what is this thing you call love? do you believe that i made All of you perfect because of love? do you guys do things because of love? because you love me? because you love yourselves? if you guys did things because you loved me there would be no problems in this world, absolutely none, because you would be doing things I love.....for I am Love...that's why " jo toh perm khelan ka chao sir tar tali gali murh aaao"
satnam: so are you saying we do not love you?
God: If you loved me enough, did you never once question why I bestowed a perfect body for a perfect soul? Do you think I made a mistake when i made hair grow all over the body and grow longer on some parts of the body? There is always a reason for what i do. You had and will have no conscious choice on the kes (hair) on your body, I do it for you.
satnam: you mean there is a reason for this hair?
God : there is a reason for everything I do. Even what seems like chaos to humans is in perfect order. There is an order for everything, that is my hukam.
satnam: That's besides the point.....we were talking of love....
God: You may think it is besides the point but ultimately you cannot Love me unless you love everything, i repeat EVERYTHING about yourself. For I am you and you are me.......how can you love me when you show no love for yourself?
how can you love yourself when you desecrate parts of you that I cherish with love? You think you see a better person when you shave your beards or trim them, or pluck your eyebrows? I only see a person who is mocking Me, who is saying I made them imperfect. Thus they do these things not because they love themselves but because they see a fault in themselves.
satnam: wow! i never thought of it that way
God: There are greater truths than the truths you think you know. Love and God are one and the same thing.....but not the way the majority of you think of it. Love accepts Everything, love expects Nothing. If you don't love everything I give you how do you expect to get something? You yourselves deny yourselves and then blame it on me. Everyday you think you are not good looking or smart enough or attractive and go to great lengths to change that when All the time I see beauty in your souls. You guys do not want to think on a sole (soul) level.
satnam: clever ....
God: Because the soul sees beauty even when the mind denies it.
satnam: because the soul is that part of You which will never be destroyed.....hence it has to be.....perfect! beautiful!
God: yes, now you are getting it...like i told you last time "mun tu jot saroop hai apna mul pachaan"
satnam: wow, this is wicked, innit????
God: ha, that was funny....i even enjoyed the moment when Bhai Jasbir Singh Ji said that at the camp!!! Wicked!!
satnam: God you like humour don't you?
God: well, I invented humour didn't I?
satnam: so to love You we gotta love everything about You?
God: There is no contract to love me....you do not have to if you choose not to, but I tell you this, If you want to love Me start by loving yourself, completely without ego, wash the vessel of your body, keep it pure, do not intoxicate it, do not interfere with my Will, My right to give you hair.....then our game of love will start.....then you will begin to know not just love but the essence of True Love..
satnam: God, you never cease to amaze me......thank you!!
God: You All never cease to amaze me too.
satnam: I love you God
God: I love you too.
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Author: observer
Date: 09-15-05 14:55
Good Post! but it should clearly say SIKH STUDENT CAMP!
Otherwise people may get wrong idea about the good camps that happen in summer
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Author: be carful sikh sisters
Date: 09-15-05 16:42
dear sikh sisters be careful of these camps - if u wish to attend take at least 2 guys of your family with you - there are some crazy singhs in these camps who arent proper gursikhs, they will try to make advances on you ...and may even assualt you - ive heard some disturbing stories...so i stress do not fall victim to these vultures....im sure 99% of siki camps are great ..but take at least two guys (if family better) with you or ur friends ..make sure you are a group..if any guy at camp tries it on shout and raise alarm..never travel of with a guy u dont know by your self ..be vigilant .....................
i hope you follow this advice and be careful... ull thank me oneday.
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Author: Singh
Date: 09-16-05 11:03
"When i came back from India i decided to cut my hair ( i was a amritdhari before going to india). So i cut my hair and told all my friends about my travels and the knowledge i gathered. Most of them decided to do what i did, which was great and we enjoy life much more. "
What a moorakh, obvously was not any sort of Amrithari to begin with. Thank God you are no longer part of the Panth, just don't try and sneak back in when your old and grey with death approaching. Enjoy your few days of life while you can.
How sad is your plight, rather than follow the Guru you made the wrong decision to follow other people, and shall reap the fruit of that. Obvously these people you met were more superior than Guru Gobind Singh, as he obvously felt it important to keep Kesh, I guess the Guru was wrong., NOT
A Sikh (sutent) is not someone who simply believes in the Guru or claims to be inwardly clean, but is someone who’s face (intellect) is towards the Guru. Such a person accepts the Guru’s hukams, which keeping Kesh is one of (although very hard to do, hence the many excuses). Therefore someone who simply claims to believe in the Guru yet ignores the teachings can understandably never be regarded as a Sikh.
The disciple ought to travel the route, pointed out by the Guru. Page 488, Line 14 -- Sekh Farid
Love for God is not lip service (which most people pay), but is shown by trying to get close to him. As a Sikh the way to do so is by following the Guru who is thier to unite one with God. Love for God is personified in your actions, not by doing the opposite of what the Guru requires.
I bet you were on the verg of leaving Sikhi in the first instance, and only needed a few excuses for you to cut your hair. You and the so called saintly people are obvously far better than the Guru who must have been really dirty from within as they kept Kesh when all you need is to have a clean inside, lol
“with my hair (kesh), I dust the feet of the Guru.” Page 387, Line 12 -- Guru Arjan Dev
“With my hair (Kesh), I wash the feet of Your slave; this is my life`s purpose. “||1|| Page 500, Line 2 -- Guru Arjan Dev
Perhaps it would have been worth doing your nitnem once in a while and hence finding out what happens to bemukhs from the Guru like you, from Anand Sahib, for once I agree 100% with Kulbir Singh. Like I said before thank God you are no longer part of the Panth.
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Author: mu-har-har-har
Date: 09-16-05 11:22
I wouldnt thank god they no longer part of panth, more like i feel sorry they aint been enlightend.
oh well all part of your karma i suppose?
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Author: Jasmin
Date: 09-16-05 20:43
Dear Truth -
Your post gave me a chill. You have been taken in. Worse you have been a negative influence on others. I will make a note of this, in case I ever travel to India, that I might not be taken in like you were.
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Author: Singhni MiriPiri
Date: 09-17-05 09:53
WaheguruJiKaKhalsaWaheguruJiKiFateh
Truth,
>>>The only thing matters is the true love inside yourself. <<<
I usually hear manmuki kids say this in my school. They make me laugh so much that I don't even bother arguing with them because I know they don't have much of an understanding of sikhi nor the meaning of life. Although, you had so much knowledge that you even went right ahead of taking amrit. But when going to India just by hearing someone say the above quote has changed everything you used to believe in.
>>>Most of them decided to do what i did, which was great and we enjoy life much more.<<<
How can you enjoy life now when your life has ended.
So, all that time you were miserable! I used to be miserable too but never a thought of giving up sikhi would ever come to mind. I knew how evil was playing with me and it played with your thoughts exactly the same. Look how much power kalyug has over you. It may seem as if you’re having fun but you’re not really because you are trapped in an illusion of the Dark Age. This thought of yours seems very vain and single-minded as you are only thinking about yourself. Liberation or salvation cannot be found without naam and you no longer have it. Even if you think you have, you will still come out empty handed because you are not abiding in Guru Ji’s path.
Don’t forget, Kalyug plays in many forms.
If you’re so happy then why did you mention this on the message board? And why are you still going on this message board when you don’t even agree with whatever they say. Really you have nothing better to do. Maybe you have some guilty conscious because you didn’t have to send something like that to a religious message board. And you didn’t have to start changing others yourself. You only did this to please yourself. What kind of advise were you looking for?
Try thinking about what will happen to you when you die.
There is no reason to give a gurbani quote because that won’t be any use to you as you are not following Guru Ji’s path. You are only taking notice of public opinion.
You still have a choice; your life hasn’t ended yet. Once you die there is no other opportunity. Now that you are following this path of the Dark Age you will have to go through the transmigrations of life and death.
Who knows when you will be blessed with another life again?
Waheguru Ji has still not given up his love on you yet but you have even though you think you are coming closer.
You can still change.
There is still some of that love for sikhi inside of you that’s why you came on this message board!
>>>When i came back from India i decided to cut my hair<<<
Did you know when you cut your hair you are committing a sin as Waheguru Ji abides in every part of the hair. Plus, committing a sin leaves a mark on your soul. It looks extremely gruesome. As a result, your soul is beginning to look hideous as well. However, by reciting on Waheguru Ji’s name with every single breath all your sins shall be erased.
I feel sad that we lost a brother in sikhi.
Becoming like somebody else what have you obtained now?
WaheguruJiKaKhalsaWaheguruJiKiFateh
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Author: Jasmin
Date: 09-17-05 16:06
Dear Truth
You can pesh and retake amrit. Please do. Its not to late for you.
Sat nam.
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Author: Zorawar Singh
Date: 09-20-05 03:13
I guess Mr Truth had just showed what Sikh student camp is all about!
What about the Niralla panth of the khalsa? How can you compare to Spirituality of hinduism of Hardwar to Gurmat? Read Bhagat Bani who knew these religions inside out, and they walked away from them to accept Gurmat.
It is a real sad day when a young person walks away from Sikhi to become a Hindu. Thank you Niddar and Sikh Student Camp!
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Author: kash
Date: 09-20-05 03:23
dear brother truth
please forget men women of forums debating right and wrong.
keep sangat with gurbani. you felt perhaps singhs will help you. It is sad but remember people are just people. Keepo sangat with naam and bhai sahibs books and you will not go wrong.
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